B772LR vs. A345

[babypurin]

Talking about airplanes sales now:

B777-693 vs. A340-384 Boeing wins!

B767-950 vs. A330-524 Boeing Wins!

These are the number of orders

...the 767 was created much earlier than the A340 & A330 was, so it is unfair to compare the three.

[ConcordeBoy]

...the 767 was created much earlier than the A340 & A330 was, so it is unfair to compare the three.

No it isn't.

The 767 was (and to a small degree, still is) the aircraft that Boeing used to counter the lower end of the A330 spectrum all the way up until 2004.



If you want a chart of equivalent comparison:

767-200A = *no competitor*
767-300A = *no competitor*
767-200ER = *no competitor*
767-300ER = A330-200(X)
767-400ER = A330-200(X)
777-200A = A330-300X
*no competitor* = A340-200
777-200ER = A340-300(X or E)
777-200LR = A340-500(HGW)
777-200F = *no competitor*
777-300A = *no competitor*
777-300ER = A340-600(HGW)

[MaxPower]

nice chart ConBoy ..
its weird to see that the 773A didnt have a competitor !!

[mariner75]

...the 767 was created much earlier than the A340 & A330 was, so it is unfair to compare the three.

OK, so then look at the 777 vs. the 340 it still blows it away just like the 767 does to the 330. Boeing has almost double the orders and younger than the A340by about 3 years.

[ConcordeBoy]

No one outside of Asia has ordered the 773A.

Boeing's apparently cornered the market for a 300-400seat A-market aircraft, so why would Airbus want to jump in at this point?

it still blows it away just like the 767 does to the 330.

Careful with that.

If you really want a non-anecdotal comparison, compare the orders the 767 has received since the launch of the A332.

[BOEING777X]

@Boeing777x: But the 777 freighter has to be bought brand new and the MD-11F can be had for quite low money as there are many standing around unused today. And what I always heard is that the MD-11F is a gorgeous freighter and the operators are very happy with it.

If the 757 is a superior freighter then why do I only see A300F/A310F flying around? For MUC that is.

As for the A350: If Boeing will launch a 787 freighter then why shouldn't Airbus launch an A350 freighter? They should be around the same diameter, no?

As for the aircraft being cheap: so what? This is handled like this everywhere. If the aircraft can't keep the promises then you have to sell it cheaper. Why not?

DHL has a massive 757PF fleet, UPS too. And the 787 has a much wider cross section than the A350.

As for buying the 777F new, the longer term savings of fuel, maintenance, trip costs et al are much lower over 10-20yrs compared to the MD11F. So purchasing something cheaper is not always the better option.

And if the A330 and A340 are anything to go by, I can assure you there will be no A350 freighter.

[vojoboy]

its weird to see that the 773A didnt have a competitor !!

The initial 777 platform was light enough to build an efficient stretched A-Market plane. The same thing cannot be said of the A340.

The A330-300 could have been a better candidate for a stretch unfortunately it would have required a new wing and an all new powerplant class. (i.e. A350)

767-200A = *no competitor*
767-300A = *no competitor*
767-200ER = *no competitor*

Wouldnt the A300/A310 family be the competitors for these three?

....careful with that:
else you might get some reeeeaaaal bad news pretty soon (and I ain't just talking freighter)

Those damn early JL and AF 773ER's were performing much better than expected (without the PIP) that LH just had to look at the plane twice before their followup A346 order . Are they giving it a 3rd glance?

[BOEING777X]

Wouldnt the A300/A310 family be the competitors for these three?

The range of every 767 surpasses the A300/310...and carries more pax too...

[vojoboy]

The range of every 767 surpasses the A300/310...and carries more pax too...

I mean the A-Market Models. They were both transcon/regional twinjets.

[ConcordeBoy]

Wouldnt the A300/A310 family be the competitors for these three?

In reality, yes; though I was doing a cross-comparison relevant to only the A330/767+A340/777 families

that LH just had to look at the plane twice before their followup A346 order . Are they giving it a 3rd glance?

Boeing plans to offer a (from what I'm hearing, quite spectacular) package to LH consisting mainling of 772Fs, but also 772LRs et al.

[James]

Well the way it's looking now. Airbus lost another one.

As were on the topic of A vs. B, what about the A320 vs. the B738

They both have just under 1400 in operation to date but the 738's range is a lot farther when using a little more fuel but holds more cargo.

Well we know who would win that now the A320 and ConcordeBoy you are so against Airbus is boeing the only aircraft you like and one of thebest planes boeing made was the B17 lol the A340 is a brilliant Aircraft if i could own a private aircraft i would own a A340 and a B17.

PS i think i do a post about that what private aircraft you would like to own.

Regards
James

[Kwashiorkor]

Oh well ...

Your point above only holds true for low-yield passengers hence you're missing the point of the current C-Market traffic which is currently targeting high-yield passengers. Most of these high-yield passengers would rather have a direct flight (and frequency) if possible as they want to get "comfortably" to their destination as soon as possible. Take the SIN-LAX O&D Market as an example. I would rather take the non-stop flight and shave off a few hours of stop (and reboarding) at either NRT or TPE and get to do my intended business ASAP.

As I said, in my opinion that will be the case not only for the high-yield passengers but soon also for the low-yields. Who doesn't want to get to his destination quickly? Well, I would rather have two takeoffs and landings in one direction but that's another story .

Dude, you're asking for too much from Airbii. The Lower deck Y seating config in the A380 is 3-4-3 and is 2-4-2 on the upper deck.

Errr, and what's exactly your point? I said that the A380 will introduce another seating arrangement for Airbus and it is. 3-4-3. That it's 2-4-2 again on the upper deck, so what? Has to be smaller because of the curvature.

I apologize if I find this comment a bit asinine. Of course consumers have a choice on what airline to fly. Unfortunately, its not just as simple as "Airplane nuts" vs. others. There are a lot of factors determining Customer Loyalty and its not because there is a "right" airline. The right airline for a some passengers might be the airline that offers cheapest fare.

What I was trying to get at was not customer loyalty but just getting the right aircraft for you in which you feel comfortable. Not airline!

Note that most MD-11F's are all converted from Pax versions. The reason why its so popular is because its cheap to acquire (no one wants the Pax version anyways) and Boeing currently doesnt have a 777ER SF conversion program. Once the demand for 777 Passenger planes go down, we'll probably see existing 772ER's converted into Freighters.

Yeah, I know and I also know that the dedicated freighter is somewhat better than the conversion but as Boeing closed the line it isn't produced anymore. But Finnair still wants to have them . It's always the same with the freighters: if nobody wants the aircraft for passenger service anymore you can get one for a handshake and easily convert it to a freighter.

You should only count the A340 family and the A330-300 vs. the 777 family. The A332 is not a direct 777 competitor (more of a 763ER competitor). Anywho, here is the Boeing site you were looking for: 777 Orders

I wanted to get the numbers for the A340 line alone but Airbus.com doesn't list it. But some of the A330 models still are direct competitors for the smaller 777 models.

Yes they were. The 762 and 763 A-Models were built as A300B4 competitors. Boeing upped the stake by building the ER (B-Market) Models which were capable of flying Trans-atlantic. Airbus responded with the AB6 and the A310's (which essentially is still an A300) but both fell a bit short against its competitor in long haul flying. Both aircraft have found a good niche in regional high cargo flying though.

Yes, in long haul these aircraft didn't perform too well mainly with the reduced range of the A300. But for medium haul and short haul traffic these are the perfect aircraft with lots of cargo capacity. That's why Lufthansa likes them so much (talking about the A300 here).

....careful with that:
else you might get some reeeeaaaal bad news pretty soon (and I ain't just talking freighter)

I would LOVE to see some LH 777 in MUC! Really! The A340-300 start to bore me real bad. Do you really think that LH might actually go that route? For LH it's a bit difficult to turn away from Airbus as many Airbus models have been designed factoring in their needs.

The 767 was (and to a small degree, still is) the aircraft that Boeing used to counter the lower end of the A330 spectrum all the way up until 2004.

It didn't work too good, though, from the point on where the A330 was offered. Before that the 767 just didn't have a competitor on the long runs as the A300 had too low a range.

The range of every 767 surpasses the A300/310...and carries more pax too...

Huh?
pax (in two classes)
767-200: around 230
767-300: around 260
A300B4: around 250 (Lufthansa 280)

Not that different in passenger capacity. In range you are right, though but that's because the A300 never has been designed to be a longhaul aircraft.

[ConcordeBoy]

ConcordeBoy you are so against Airbus is boeing the only aircraft you like

...I'm guessing you're either illiterate, blind, or just careless enough to miss reply#42.

Which is it?

[James]

...I'm guessing you're either illiterate, blind, or just careless enough to miss reply#42.

Which is it?

What you on about?

[vojoboy]

As I said, in my opinion that will be the case not only for the high-yield passengers but soon also for the low-yields. Who doesn't want to get to his destination quickly? Well, I would rather have two takeoffs and landings in one direction but that's another story .

I understand that some low-yield passengers also want to be catered by C-Market planes. At the end of the day, will it be profitable for an airline to fully cater to these passengers for these routes? While a higher density would mean lowering seat-mile costs, a higher density Y cabin will also mean less margin to cover for the trip costs. We might see a few 777LR's with normal economy config (3-3-3 like PK's) but these wont have a huge economy cabin (like normal Y in Thai's A345's).

What I was trying to get at was not customer loyalty but just getting the right aircraft for you in which you feel comfortable. Not airline!

I mentioned right airline because you used the term "right" airline.

...doesn't want to fly with by just choosing the "right" airline

Now if you're talking about aircraft then yes, there are passengers that will go out of their way and book a 777 flight rather than an A300 given that their schedules are flexible. But it is not the definitive factor that will decide whether a passenger will be loyal to an airline or not.

Yeah, I know and I also know that the dedicated freighter is somewhat better than the conversion but as Boeing closed the line it isn't produced anymore. But Finnair still wants to have them .

Boeing had to close the line because they were'nt getting Orders anymore. By the time LH Cargo requested for more units, it was too late and Boeing had already decided to drop the thingy. It was good business sense too because it was more costly for Boeing to maintain a separate MD-11 line in Long Beach that wasnt doing well.

It's always the same with the freighters: if nobody wants the aircraft for passenger service anymore you can get one for a handshake and easily convert it to a freighter.

It has to have good uplift capability though (hence the A340 wont make for a good F conversion).

... But some of the A330 models still are direct competitors for the smaller 777 models.

There are only 2 distinct A330 models and only the A330-300 competes with any of the 777 models (i.e. 777-200A)

Yes, in long haul these aircraft didn't perform too well mainly with the reduced range of the A300. But for medium haul and short haul traffic these are the perfect aircraft with lots of cargo capacity. That's why Lufthansa likes them so much (talking about the A300 here).

And they are prime for replacement hence the 787-3.

I would LOVE to see some LH 777 in MUC! Really! The A340-300 start to bore me real bad. Do you really think that LH might actually go that route? For LH it's a bit difficult to turn away from Airbus as many Airbus models have been designed factoring in their needs.

You might just get your wish (fingers crossed :d)

It didn't work too good, though, from the point on where the A330 was offered. Before that the 767 just didn't have a competitor on the long runs as the A300 had too low a range.

Truth is, Airbus stumbled on the A332 and they didnt even know then that it would be their best-selling widebody.