Colgan DHC-8 crashed in Buffalo

[T.O.G.A.]

Both boxes found. Hopefully this is an easy one to figure out.

Careful what you hope for.

[Leftseat86]

The 2nd aircraft behind them on approach, an Embraer 190 reported picking up a good amount of ice for 20 miles inbound. It looks like from the radar returns that the Dash 8 was just heading into an icing prone area in the final minutes before the crash, and it doesn't look like they needed the de-icing systems out of EWR.

So yes, all signs point to icing, but it could still be anything.

Whatever happened, happened very quickly though...in between the handoff from approach to tower, they never called the tower.

[AVION1]

I still remember that King Air in Colorado, crashing almost inverted, nose first...with the O.S.U. basket team aboard, killing everyone....the airplane got severe ice at 7,000 ft..!!
I guess some airplane models have a "magnet" for ice accumulation, just wait for the "Perfect Storm" and the basic ingredients for an accident to happen...specially those with a T-tail.

[Leftseat86]

Eagle Flight 4184 was the first thing that came to mind yesterday.

[bobbydee]

Watching NTSB press conference. Landing gear lowered 1 minute before end of recording. 20 seconds after landing gear deployment, 15 degrees flaps commanded. Immediately after flaps, "Severe pitch and roll excursions."

[ojexpress]

Heading - listen

12min 39secs into the tape listen to her (the pilot) confirm the new heading 330

now go to 14min 4 secs ATC says turn to heading 310 sounds like she (the pilot) confirms with 210

have a listen - what do you think?

[Pezzino]

Watching NTSB press conference. Landing gear lowered 1 minute before end of recording. 20 seconds after landing gear deployment, 15 degrees flaps commanded. Immediately after flaps, "Severe pitch and roll excursions."

Asymmetric Flaps deployment? Could that behavior be exacerbated or invoked by icing?

Edit: I think I answered my own question there. Ice accumulates on the leading edge...would have to be alot of trailing water that made it onto the rear-wing flaps in order to be the catalyst there. Or am I mistaken?

[Airbus_A320]

12min 39secs into the tape listen to her (the pilot) confirm the new heading 330

now go to 14min 4 secs ATC says turn to heading 310 sounds like she (the pilot) confirms with 210

have a listen - what do you think?

Everything up to the tower handoff was readback. Whatever happened, happened after the flight was handed off and before she had a chance to call the tower.

[avro_arrow_25206]

12min 39secs into the tape listen to her (the pilot) confirm the new heading 330

now go to 14min 4 secs ATC says turn to heading 310 sounds like she (the pilot) confirms with 210

have a listen - what do you think?

I heard her confirm with 310.

[Dmmoore]

Asymmetric Flaps deployment? Could that behavior be exacerbated or invoked by icing?

Edit: I think I answered my own question there. Ice accumulates on the leading edge...would have to be alot of trailing water that made it onto the rear-wing flaps in order to be the catalyst there. Or am I mistaken?

Sounds like a leading edge fouled with ice, possibly a ridge aft of the boot due to blow back. When the flaps moved, the boundary layer separated (stall) from one wing.

Have we heard if the AP was engaged at the time?

[rohank4284]

I'm not sure how the Q400's system is activated. Most systems rely on the pilot to activate them after the crew A) notices ice accumulation. B) when the OAT is in the icing range (+10 to -10C) or C) when entering areas of visible moisture.

I had heard that some Boeing jets, give visual icing warnings, I guess in the case of the Q400's, the plane doesn't give any icing warnings. Since, many JP.net members are claiming that the engines may have fouled with ice, it will definitely be interesting to see if the anti-ice system was on, at the time of the crash.

The plane was directed to descend to 2,300 feet, the Buffalo Niagara airport has altitude of 728ft, so I would guess that the AP was on before the plane stalled.

This was an extremely tragic event and my condolences go out to the families of the victims.

Regards,

Rohan

[CotterPin]

CNN reports that FAA is reporting pilot attempted to retract gear and reset flaps.

Icing theory seems to be a strong candidate due to those details. Drag from gear could have overwhelmed the diminished aerodynamics of the plane to the point where it was no longer airworthy.

[Airbus_A320]

I had heard that some Boeing jets, give visual icing warnings, I guess in the case of the Q400's, the plane doesn't give any icing warnings. Since, many JP.net members are claiming that the engines may have fouled with ice, it will definitely be interesting to see if the anti-ice system was on, at the time of the crash.

The plane was directed to descend to 2,300 feet, the Buffalo Niagara airport has altitude of 728ft, so I would guess that the AP was on before the plane stalled.

This was an extremely tragic event and my condolences go out to the families of the victims.

Regards,

Rohan

They found the flight recorders and the de-ice system was on, and the pilots discussed ice buildup as high as 11,000. From the ATC tape, other planes reported ice too, and the pilot of a Labquest flight (they fly Barons, which also have boots) requested a continuous climb beyond what he was assigned after takeoff because of ice, so he was obviously concerned about it too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home

[Cam]

A similar turboprop jet crash 15 years ago in Indiana was caused by ice, and after that the NTSB recommended more aggressively using pneumatic de-icing boots. But the FAA has not adopted the recommendation. It remains on the NTSB's list of most-wanted safety improvements.
Link

Interesting fact from the article.

RIP to all involved.

[Alessandro]

1. Gender of pilot is irrelevant.

2. If she was working the radios, she was not likely flying it.

Now her identity has been revealed, it was a reply to AAs concern about a male pilot he knew.