Air France plane missing?

[snanceki]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about semantics.

....and your comment re politically correct. Err?

Surely a desire to obtain any commodity at the lowest possible price is just common sense!

Either you are with my sentiment or you aren't. Not much I can do about it but...

AD use to be the place for professional discussion (remember Al Weaver?) but it's integrity under its current home is currently headed in the wrong direction.

However I did appreciate ITS's emboldened style!

[Louis Gonzalez]

Question about tail

It's a little hard to tell from the aforementioned photo, but does it look like the tail attachments held only on the right side and not the left side or is this incorrect?

[swissair]

the improbable probably happened

It'd be brilliant if you could elaborate on the bomb scenario which you seem so positive of, and back it up with technical details that have led you to such a conclusion, which is what every one has been trying to do here, and how the bomb scenario got dropped in the first place from what I gathered.

I'm sure every one here would rather have your definitive answer to what really happened (provided it's the truth, obviously) than harp on for 80-odd pages looking for a needle in a haystack. (Or an FDR at the bottom of the Atlantic, pick your image.)

The way the media were misfed, the way the F govt is in diarray, Air France procastrinating, Airbus not grounding its AB 330 series until further notice.....just think please. There was a sudden event, probably ripping parts open, letting the V stab fail and then the plane struggled. Why do you all always believe that a so called bomb has to explode the entire plane. Go and study terrorsim files and look at small devices, go and search in the other direction instead of trying to explain how an AB 330 is built and how it behaves in severe turbulence at overspeed. Pilots did not enter bad weather, the AB 330 is certified and stress tested, V stab does not snap, lastly, to give you a lead, please verify the measurments and angles of the AP released helo shot of the V stab floating and please do compare with the original V Stab of the real thing, the real AB 332. Enjoy the findings. So why the cover up? And also, sorry forgot to give you a piece of history, look at the political mess and cover up around the UTA DC 10-30 that plunged in to Niger in the late 80s. Then let us talk here tomorrow about other stuff. PS: What do you think the Nuclear Attack Sub Emeraude is really doing down there?

[snanceki]

@ Evan

Yes I have looked at the vfin fix and the failure is very different to AA.

I am however interested that although there is airframe structure attached to the vfin at a point adjacent to the movable rudder fixing there doesn't appear to be similar structure attached towards the forward root attachment of the vfin. Apparently there should be 6 attachment points. Looks like only 2 are present. See http://s635.photobucket.com/albums/u...&current=6.jpg

Earlier in this thread an image was published of the rear end structure of the aircraft (empenage) which I hoped might throw some light on the above observation.

However I have been unable to find that image again. Can anybody point towards it?

Something (maybe its the missing lower edge of the rudder) makes me think that the vfin may have rotated along the axis of the aircraft when it detached rather than a lateral failure induced by potential excessive rudder movement.

What could have induced such a force along the longitudinal axis?
Hitting the water inverted?

I have to conclude that there just isn't sufficient data available at present to add anything meaningful to the discussion.

[seahawk]

Ok, but just exactly how do you find that conclusion? Is it a gut feeling or is it based on the available evidence, the photographs of the damaged fin? Did you take notice of the fact that the composite lugs were intact and still attached to the aluminum superstructure components? Did you notice that? With that evidence in front of you, do you believe that pilot input caused the aluminum superstructure to fail. Was it due to "cheap aluminum", because clearly the aluminum and not the composite failed, anyone with eyes can plainly see that. If anything, it shows the strength of the composite by demonstrating that it could survive a stress that exceeded the aluminum itself.

The evidence suggests a catastrophic failure as a result of an uncontrolled descent or impact, not pilot overloading or in-flight turbulence. But in any case, the aluminum and not the composite has failed.

Have another look at this photo (there are better resolution versions available if you search for them):

Correct my statement to the tails seperated from the aircraft most liely when the depressuration was noticed.

[Evan]

@ Evan

Yes I have looked at the vfin fix and the failure is very different to AA.

I am however interested that although there is airframe structure attached to the vfin at a point adjacent to the movable rudder fixing there doesn't appear to be similar structure attached towards the forward root attachment of the vfin. There are apparently 6 attachment points.

Earlier in this thread an image was published of the rear end structure of the aircraft (empenage) which I hoped might throw some light on the above observation.

However I have been unable to find that image again. Can anybody point towards it?

Something (maybe its the missing lower edge of the rudder) makes me think that the vfin may have rotated along the axis of the aircraft when it detached rather than a lateral failure induced by potential excessive rudder movement.

What could have induced such a force along the longitudinal axis?
Hitting the water inverted?

I have to conclude that there just isn't sufficient data available at present to add anything meaningful to the discussion.

The front composite lug has failed, but the other two remain intact, and the aluminum (alloy) has failed instead. Why and when the fin separated is something I'll leave up to the engineering experts working the investigation (but in any event, it was very dissimilar to AA587).

My point was only to try and put an end to this innane "cheap composites" discussion by showing where four of the six composite structures outperformed the metal structures. Despite the obviousness of this, I realize the debate will continue, but only from antagonism or bias and in spite of the evidence.

[swissair]

A previous French political crash - UTA DC 10 Niger facts

The way the media were misfed, the way the F govt is in diarray, Air France procastrinating, Airbus not grounding its AB 330 series until further notice.....just think please. There was a sudden event, probably ripping parts open, letting the V stab fail and then the plane struggled. Why do you all always believe that a so called bomb has to explode the entire plane. Go and study terrorsim files and look at small devices, go and search in the other direction instead of trying to explain how an AB 330 is built and how it behaves in severe turbulence at overspeed. Pilots did not enter bad weather, the AB 330 is certified and stress tested, V stab does not snap, lastly, to give you a lead, please verify the measurments and angles of the AP released helo shot of the V stab floating and please do compare with the original V Stab of the real thing, the real AB 332. Enjoy the findings. So why the cover up? And also, sorry forgot to give you a piece of history, look at the political mess and cover up around the UTA DC 10-30 that plunged in to Niger in the late 80s. Then let us talk here tomorrow about other stuff. PS: What do you think the Nuclear Attack Sub Emeraude is really doing down there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Flight_772

[wannabe_A&P_girl]

lastly, to give you a lead, please verify the measurments and angles of the AP released helo shot of the V stab floating and please do compare with the original V Stab of the real thing, the real AB 332

So you're saying that the fin found floating was in fact not from AF447 and perhaps placed there?

I am really confused.

[swissair]

So you're saying that the fin found floating was in fact not from AF447 and perhaps placed there?

I am really confused.

Please measure it and then tell me what plane you think it came off? The rest I do not know why but it stinks.

[Evan]

Please measure it and then tell me what plane you think it came off? The rest I do not know why but it stinks.

That's clearly not the Atlantic Ocean in the photograph either. I mean you would have to be totally naive to think that.

[snanceki]

Perspective / Parallax Error.

@ SwissAir

Look at the Euro Star flags on the vfin.
Notice they are not round. At least in the photos that I am looking at.
They should be round.
This means that measurements, even proportional measurements, can't be read across from photo to the other due to perspective errors.
I agree the perspective difference does make them look somewhat different but I conclude they are the same.

Maybe you would like to share your measurements.

[swissair]

Measure the V Stab and compare, the water we can not measure in a photo

That's clearly not the Atlantic Ocean in the photograph either. I mean you would have to be totally naive to think that.

Measure it, compare the V Stab, then reply, I am sure you will be shocked too......good luck.

[swissair]

V stab photo not authentic

@ SwissAir

Look at the Euro Star flags on the vfin.
Notice they are not round. At least in the photos that I am looking at.
They should be round.
This means that measurements, even proportional measurements, can't be read across from photo to the other due to perspective errors.
I agree the perspective difference does make them look somewhat different but I conclude they are the same.

Maybe you would like to share your measurements.

My pleasure:
1. the area of white below the red stripe (the media's goes wider),
2. the slope of the back edge in relation to the baseline (the media's is a 90 degree angle),
3. the width of the top edge length in white (the media's is wider),
4. the overall length top to bottom (media's is shorter; and there are no breaks to the top part of the media's as you can see the circle of yellow stars near the top).

[mawheatley]

Pilots did not enter bad weather

Yes they did. The weather maps from that night show they did.

Why do you all always believe that a so called bomb has to explode the entire plane.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a bomb blew up the whole aeroplane. Thing is, explosive device => explosion. Explosion => reallly hot stuff. Really hot stuff => charring or burn marks or scorch marks - SOMETHING. To date there is no evidence that even the fuel ignited on the way down - no burns on any of the evidence. Look at the stuff being pulled from the sea - nothing has any burning on it at all.

What you have provided is not evidence of a bomb at all. It is purely based on gut feelings and erroneous hypothesis. The other 80 odd pages of this thread, for the most part, are trying to deduce what COULD have happened, postulations are being proposed, discussed, shot down, whatever, but they are mostly intelligent questions, or at least questions asked because that member has a desire to increase their knowledge.

What I'm saying, and what has beed said over and over and over again on these pages, is that there is simply not enough out there to point to a bomb or away from a bomb, to a weather induced event or away, to a "composite induced failure" or away. I am NOT ruling out a bomb, although I have to agree with a few other posters here, Gabriel in particular, I think it is 99.9% likely that it was not a bomb, and given what we have that's all anyone can say.

[mawheatley]

My pleasure:
1. the area of white below the red stripe (the media's goes wider),
2. the slope of the back edge in relation to the baseline (the media's is a 90 degree angle),
3. the width of the top edge length in white (the media's is wider),
4. the overall length top to bottom (media's is shorter; and there are no breaks to the top part of the media's as you can see the circle of yellow stars near the top).

Looks pretty damned similar to me.

Compare to this: http://i.pbase.com/o4/58/610858/1/91....AFFGZCA2w.jpg

Have to keep in mind that the one pulled from the sea is only the fin - I do not think it includes the rudder, and the "hinge" for the rudder is not parallel to the "bar code stripes" in the Air France branding. I can half see where you're coming from but with all due respect I think you're wrong.