Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Northwester]

Again, how? What do you envision?

The ATC transcripts have been released in cooperation with Polish aviation experts. You have said that they are not official. What makes them official? Do you have reason to expect to see a more 'official' version?

Yes. It has been just posted on MAK site. But it is only in Russian. So not much use. Someone will have to translate it. Maybe you, Evan?

[Evan]

Yes. It has been just posted on MAK site. But it is only in Russian. So not much use. Someone will have to translate it. Maybe you, Evan?

It's of perfect use to anyone with the ability to translate it, such as the Polish investigation team.

The ATC audio recordings consist of two 10-track tape recordings. On the first reel, tracks 2,3,6 and 9 are not used. Track 5 is the LOM signal. Track 7 is the telephone. Track 10 is for timing only. That leaves track 1, communication over 124.0 mHz, which is on the CVR transcript as well, and tracks 4 and 8. Track 8 is the dispatcher's loudspeaker (irrelevant). Track 4 is the area mic.

Reel 2 includes 6 unused tracks (1,3,5,6,8,9). Track 10 is a timing track. Track 2 is just a copy of communication over 124.0 mHz. Track 4 is the CATC's workstation, and Track 7 is the loudspeaker recording conversations with the weather reports (this track is blank due to a recorder head malfunction).

so...

You already have track 1, reel 1 and track 2, reel 2 on the CVR. We know that weather was communicated to the flight as being below minima, so the data missing from track 7 is irrelevant.

That leaves the local area mic and the CATC workstation? The Polish, who can translate Russian, already have this and know what it contains.

What do you expect to get from it?

[Northwester]

It's of perfect use to anyone with the ability to translate it, such as the Polish investigation team.

Polish team already has it, even if it is unofficial. I am thinking about the rest of the world.

We know that weather was communicated to the flight as being below minima, so the data missing from track 7 is irrelevant.

Really? I would like to know what weather info was given to ATC and what info was relayed to the pilots. You call this irrelevant?

What do you expect to get from it?

I don't know. Maybe if anyone was under pressure? Drunk? Showing signs od indecisivness? Reacting too slow? Singing and dancing?
Whole range of things that might help Russian ATCs do better job next time and maybe prevent another tragic event.

[MCM]

Whole range of things that might help Russian ATCs do better job next time and maybe prevent another tragic event.

Unfortunately NorthWester, your constant efforts looking to undermine and blame the Russian side is just weakening any tenuous argument you may have had.

Why should we see an English version official report? Where is there a requirement to deliver one?

This is an accident involving the Russian and Polish sides - that is all. The regions that operate these aircraft, in these kinds of operations, are all ones that will be able to receive the report in appropriate ways.

TBH I'm surprised we have had so much info publicised. Things like ATC tapes and CVR recordings really are not public info, and shouldn't be released.

[Northwester]

Unfortunately NorthWester, your constant efforts looking to undermine and blame the Russian side is just weakening any tenuous argument you may have had.

Why should we see an English version official report? Where is there a requirement to deliver one?

This is an accident involving the Russian and Polish sides - that is all. The regions that operate these aircraft, in these kinds of operations, are all ones that will be able to receive the report in appropriate ways.

TBH I'm surprised we have had so much info publicised. Things like ATC tapes and CVR recordings really are not public info, and shouldn't be released.

There is nothing wrong with pointing to shortcomings on any side. I acknowledge mistakes made by Polish pilots, they screwed up big - at least that's how it looks like right now. But I resent Russians publishing their report in English and sending out a message that was interpreted in most foreign newspapers as "a drunk general forced incompetent pilots to land in heavy fog", and not forthcoming with any issues on their side that might have been some factors in this crash. It is absolutely unheard of to publish detailed autopsy report of one single passenger to support an opinion, any opinion. So when they publish more info that might not be as favorable for them, they decide this time not to publish in English?

I am trying to keep some balance in this forum, so at least we have some differing opinions.

[Evan]

TBH I'm surprised we have had so much info publicised. Things like ATC tapes and CVR recordings really are not public info, and shouldn't be released.

It's not surprising really... the Russians are probably more concerned about world opinion than Polish opinion. The report is very thorough in anticipating collateral accusations, and has a discreetly exonerative tone to it.

[Fear_of_Flying]

I am trying to keep some balance in this forum, so at least we have some differing opinions.

I don't think so. You came onto this forum under false pretenses, claiming to want to gain some objective insights into the causes of the accident. However, you quickly started devising theories based mainly on speculation that flew in the face of available evidence not to mention common sense, that would shift responsibility away from the Polish pilots and VIP passengers. Even before the Russian report came out, you tipped your hand that you were going to attack the credibility of anything and everything the Russians said, which you have proceeded to do indiscriminately. I predict it is only a matter of time before you produce "proof" that the whole report is a conspiracy, thus adding you to a long list of trolls on this forum whose posts serve only to advance a personal agenda. In your case, I would be interested in knowing why you are so hellbent on absolving the Polish side of some or all responsibility, but it's evident you have no intention of coming clean, and will instead continue to shoot what's left of your credibility to hell, as you unbelievably still claim to be looking for a balanced perspective. Your intimation that somehow the Russians delayed responding to the emergency, thus allowing a few extra minutes for the dying-but-not-quite-dead decapitated passengers to expire is the biggest crock I've ever seen, and the idea that a person's intoxication level isn't revealed after an accident is news to me. Are there deficiencies with this crap Russian airport? No doubt. And the pilots knew what they were working with and what the limitations were. That's part of what made their judgment so egregious. As I said before, the world was saddened by these events, and no one thinks the pilots purposely went belly-up - but if our approach to this accident is to try to make excuses and blame people who deserve no blame, then we are guilty of the same bluster, arrogance, irrationality, and desperation that led to this accident in the first place.

[Northwester]

I don't think so. You came onto this forum under false pretenses, claiming to want to gain some objective insights into the causes of the accident. However, you quickly started devising theories based mainly on speculation that flew in the face of available evidence not to mention common sense, that would shift responsibility away from the Polish pilots and VIP passengers. Even before the Russian report came out, you tipped your hand that you were going to attack the credibility of anything and everything the Russians said, which you have proceeded to do indiscriminately. I predict it is only a matter of time before you produce "proof" that the whole report is a conspiracy, thus adding you to a long list of trolls on this forum whose posts serve only to advance a personal agenda. In your case, I would be interested in knowing why you are so hellbent on absolving the Polish side of some or all responsibility, but it's evident you have no intention of coming clean, and will instead continue to shoot what's left of your credibility to hell, as you unbelievably still claim to be looking for a balanced perspective. Your intimation that somehow the Russians delayed responding to the emergency, thus allowing a few extra minutes for the dying-but-not-quite-dead decapitated passengers to expire is the biggest crock I've ever seen, and the idea that a person's intoxication level isn't revealed after an accident is news to me. Are there deficiencies with this crap Russian airport? No doubt. And the pilots knew what they were working with and what the limitations were. That's part of what made their judgment so egregious. As I said before, the world was saddened by these events, and no one thinks the pilots purposely went belly-up - but if our approach to this accident is to try to make excuses and blame people who deserve no blame, then we are guilty of the same bluster, arrogance, irrationality, and desperation that led to this accident in the first place.

This is harsh and unnecessary. I will respond to this in due time. You are an angry person, in case you did not know it.

Just one question: if a member of your family perished in an accident, would you accept as OK if the investigating agency published FULL autopsy report on the internet for everyone to see just to prove that there was alcohol in the blood?

[MCM]

The reason the Russian side has been so free flowing (unnecessarily so, I believe, but you seem to want more...) is that they know they have nothing to hide - it was their aerodrome, but not their operation.

They know full well that many people (including, it appears, yourself) will attempt to place any blame they possibly can towards their side; looking for any possible way to explain the tragic loss.

In a military accident, usually you would see next to no public info - but here they have gone out of their way to make it available - and yes, some of it doesn't make pleasant reading.

I am confused as to what you want - on the one hand you are making accusations of not providing enough detail, information, and keeping it secret, and yet on the other now you are abusing them for revealing information which is personal!

How about the CVR? You don't think the dying words of men shouldn't be reserved for the ears of only those qualified as investigators? And yet YOU want access to that information?

Which is it to be?

You have Polish investigators and Russian investigators. Have the Polish investigators stated they are unhappy with the findings? Funny that.

[Northwester]

The reason the Russian side has been so free flowing (unnecessarily so, I believe, but you seem to want more...) is that they know they have nothing to hide - it was their aerodrome, but not their operation.

They know full well that many people (including, it appears, yourself) will attempt to place any blame they possibly can towards their side; looking for any possible way to explain the tragic loss.

In a military accident, usually you would see next to no public info - but here they have gone out of their way to make it available - and yes, some of it doesn't make pleasant reading.

I am confused as to what you want - on the one hand you are making accusations of not providing enough detail, information, and keeping it secret, and yet on the other now you are abusing them for revealing information which is personal!

How about the CVR? You don't think the dying words of men shouldn't be reserved for the ears of only those qualified as investigators? And yet YOU want access to that information?

Which is it to be?

You have Polish investigators and Russian investigators. Have the Polish investigators stated they are unhappy with the findings? Funny that.

Polish investigators have been complaining about the flow of information from the very beginning. Their requests for information and documents have been ignored or denied. They see conclusions in the report based on documents they have never seen.

I don't need to see or hear the last 5 seconds of the CVR tape. I don't need to see the autopsy reports. I don't need it and I don't think it is right to disclose them. But the investigators have to have access to all documents. Period.

Please don't confuse these two things. I have been complaining about lack of disclosure to Polish investigators, not to public in general.

Polish side has the ATC records only because someone, in the initial stages of the investigation, made same makeshift copies with a laptop without too many people knowing about it. This is not how this should be happening.

[Northwester]

You made both of these comments in the last several hours. Consistent? The ATC transcripts are in fact scheduled to be publicly released, by the way, probably due to the latest grumblings that something is being hidden.

My goodness! Could you read my comments carefully?

Issue 1: Flow of information from Russian investigators to Polish investigators.

Issue 2: Releasing the final report in a way and form that is accessible to all interested parties.

[Evan]

You made both of these comments in the last several hours. Consistent?

Confirmation bias. Consistent confirmation bias.

You can't argue against it. You can only smother it with facts and evidence, as the Russians are doing here.

[kris]

I think it is likely (still waiting for the results of Polish investigation though) that they pushed the button and were fully expecting the AP to do the job.

How do you explain their lack of reaction to AP not doing anything, and to NAV calls?

[Curtis Malone]

I don't think so. You came onto this forum under false pretenses, claiming to want to gain some objective insights into the causes of the accident. However, you quickly started devising theories based mainly on speculation that flew in the face of available evidence not to mention common sense, that would shift responsibility away from the Polish pilots and VIP passengers. Even before the Russian report came out, you tipped your hand that you were going to attack the credibility of anything and everything the Russians said, which you have proceeded to do indiscriminately. I predict it is only a matter of time before you produce "proof" that the whole report is a conspiracy, thus adding you to a long list of trolls on this forum whose posts serve only to advance a personal agenda. In your case, I would be interested in knowing why you are so hellbent on absolving the Polish side of some or all responsibility, but it's evident you have no intention of coming clean, and will instead continue to shoot what's left of your credibility to hell, as you unbelievably still claim to be looking for a balanced perspective. Your intimation that somehow the Russians delayed responding to the emergency, thus allowing a few extra minutes for the dying-but-not-quite-dead decapitated passengers to expire is the biggest crock I've ever seen, and the idea that a person's intoxication level isn't revealed after an accident is news to me. Are there deficiencies with this crap Russian airport? No doubt. And the pilots knew what they were working with and what the limitations were. That's part of what made their judgment so egregious. As I said before, the world was saddened by these events, and no one thinks the pilots purposely went belly-up - but if our approach to this accident is to try to make excuses and blame people who deserve no blame, then we are guilty of the same bluster, arrogance, irrationality, and desperation that led to this accident in the first place.

In fairness to Northwester, FoF, he is not the first person to do what you're describing around these parts and I highly doubt he'll be the last. I imagine that for anyone with any tangible connection to Poland and the Poles this accident itself and the crew's actions must be a very difficult pill to swallow even to the extent of suggesting that ATC can somehow force a pilot to land in unacceptable conditons, which I suspect is what Northwester is really suggesting.

[Northwester]

How do you explain their lack of reaction to AP not doing anything, and to NAV calls?

Let's say they push the button at 10:40:48 when the Nav. says 100m, right after the warning calls. I suppose 1 second passes while they expect something to happen. Nothing happens so F/O looks at the instruments and says "something normal". That takes them to 1.6 seconds after pushing the button. A moment of disbelief and a realization that things are not going the right way. At 10:40:51 force is applied the the control column. All that happens in 3 seconds. Try to imagine yourself in a situation like this, and count to 3.