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**guamainiac** · 2011-03-12, 19:30

Imagine what it was like in the 1950's and into 1970 with no on board radar. Weren't those the early "Ryan Storm Scopes" and such? I remember in Fate Is The Hunter, Ernest Gann takes you back flying the early routes (AIM-1) from Newark and Pittsburgh and such and tells about each route by the season. Apparently the old thunderstorm "SOP" was once the pilot was soaked, you put down the gear and flaps and just made the plane dirty so the speed couldn't build.

August? Things can happen pretty fast with humidity and the "lapse rate".

I had a wing seat for a flight like that too. We were the last to land and on final it hit me that we were so crabbed it was like I was flying. Watching the planes doing go-rounds after us I had the same feeling and that pilot was doing a lot of arm pumping as we got off. I am still wondering if he was a hero and hell of a pilot or we were almost goats?

Yeah, 1964 they probably didn't know but in 1994 you are right, it sounded like they had to get down.

**Curtis Malone** · 2011-03-12, 19:47

Originally posted by Myndee View Post

Thoughts?

To paraphrase Brooklyn's own Patricia Mae Andrzejewski, "flying is a battlefield".

**Myndee** · 2011-03-12, 20:06

Originally posted by Curtis Malone View Post

To paraphrase Brooklyn's own Patricia Mae Andrzejewski, "flying is a battlefield".

Being a child of the 80s, I appreciate this comment!

I also appreciate the previous comment.

Well, they must have been some great aviators, because I am here today to annoy the wisemen here with my questions and opinions.

**Curtis Malone** · 2011-03-12, 21:02

Originally posted by Myndee View Post

Well, they must have been some great aviators, because I am here today to annoy the wisemen here with my questions and opinions.

And isn't that what's ultimately most important?

**474218** · 2011-03-12, 21:31

I was on one of those type flights: It was a PSA 727-200 PHX-LAX Thanksgiving weekend in the mid 80's. There was one of those Pacific storms that California gets during the winter. As we begain the initial approach to LAX, out over Lake Arrowhead, the ups and downs were harder than I had felt before or since. I notice that rather than throttling back as normal the engines were in full noise. The pilot was using the spoilers to control the alttude. When we went up the spoilers went up, we went down down went the spoilers. It was a real "E" Ticked ride.

AJ · 2011-03-12, 23:07

Although it does occasionally happen it is very hard to know if you are in a storm as a passenger.

If there are embedded cells the lightning reflects through any other cloud making it seem like you are in the cell itself, and as you know the noise of thunder travels great distances.

Combine this with turbulence and the appearance from the passenger cabin is not good! Wingtip strobes reflecting in the cloud can make the effect even worse.

**Peter Kesternich** · 2011-03-13, 09:20

Originally posted by AJ View Post

Although it does occasionally happen it is very hard to know if you are in a storm as a passenger. (...)

Thanks for this comment, AJ. I believe most of the time that passengers feel they are having a bad ride, the aircraft is just experiencing turbulence and not actually flying through a thunderstorm cell. Also, even though pilots may try to avoid thunderstorms, there are regions on the planet where this is all but impossible. Most of the tropics would be off-limits to any aircraft if there was a general law to stay away from thunderstorms.

**Evan** · 2011-03-13, 16:10

Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post

Thanks for this comment, AJ. I believe most of the time that passengers feel they are having a bad ride, the aircraft is just experiencing turbulence and not actually flying through a thunderstorm cell. Also, even though pilots may try to avoid thunderstorms, there are regions on the planet where this is all but impossible. Most of the tropics would be off-limits to any aircraft if there was a general law to stay away from thunderstorms.

Isn't that what reserve fuel and alternates are for?

Yet how many crashes have we seen where the pilot was trying to land in extreme weather?

AA331... AIRES 8250... ETC... ETC...

Foolishness.

**Peter Kesternich** · 2011-03-13, 16:56

Hmmm... seems I didn't make myself clear enough...

Also, even though pilots may try to avoid thunderstorms, there are regions on the planet where this is all but impossible. Most of the tropics would be off-limits to any aircraft if there was a general law to stay away from thunderstorms.

**Curtis Malone** · 2011-03-13, 17:06

Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post

Hmmm... seems I didn't make myself clear enough...

Also, even though pilots may try to avoid thunderstorms, there are regions on the planet where this is all but impossible. Most of the tropics would be off-limits to any aircraft if there was a general law to stay away from thunderstorms.

Save your breath and your nerve cells, Peter. It appears some people have a hard time with the whole "shit happens" concept.

**Evan** · 2011-03-13, 18:26

Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post

Hmmm... seems I didn't make myself clear enough...

Also, even though pilots may try to avoid thunderstorms, there are regions on the planet where this is all but impossible. Most of the tropics would be off-limits to any aircraft if there was a general law to stay away from thunderstorms.

Now, I'm sure there might be rare times, especially in the tropics, where both the primary and alternates are under severe weather simultaneously (which was not predictable when the flight departed from its destination), and reserves are not sufficient to hold outside these systems long enough for a safe opportunity to land (and go-around if necessary). This, I would ascribe to the "shit happens" excuse. But truthfully, how often is this the case? Aside from this, which tropical destinations do not provide for an alternate in the event weather prevents landing at the primary destination?

Necessity, I understand. But the instances I am referring to were not matters of necessity.

**Peter Kesternich** · 2011-03-13, 18:32

Originally posted by Evan View Post

Now, I'm sure there might be rare times, especially in the tropics, where both the primary and alternates are under severe weather simultaneously (which was not predictable when the flight departed from its destination), and reserves are not sufficient to hold outside these systems long enough for a safe opportunity to land (and go-around if necessary). This, I would ascribe to the "shit happens" excuse. But truthfully, how often is this the case? Aside from this, which tropical destinations do not provide for an alternate in the event weather prevents landing at the primary destination?

Well, Evan - have you ever been to the tropics? After what you just wrote, I would assume you haven't. If you are flying in Southeast Asia, thunderstorms are a phenomenon that can affect whole regions at the same time during monsoon season. It's quite possible to find no alternate airport within a radius of several hundred mailes that is not affected by thunderstorms.

Originally posted by Evan View Post

Necessity, I understand. But the instances I am referring to were not matters of necessity.

That's true...

**guamainiac** · 2011-03-13, 20:49

Most if not all times cells are on the move. What do you do if your panel is lit up and showing a cell.

While at altitude are you working to dodge cells are are you going through them?

If there is a cell right off, perhaps a mile off the threshold, what are they telling you to do?

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