Steering with engines...

[Luka]

Just remembered another question:
I while back, i was talking over the net about WW2. In particular about how so many bombers, American and English who had had their control surfaces completely shot up or control cables cut from German fighters. These bombers had to steer (is that the right spelling or am i talking bovine?) with their engines to get home. A bloke piped up and said he was an ex-USAF pilot and had never heard of an aircraft (multi engined) steering with engines! I obviously asked him what he flew and he replied eight engines aircraft. I somewhat untactfully blurted out "oh so you flew B-52s!?" He neither confirmed or denied it so i presume i was right. (can't think of too many more eight engined aircraft.) I assured him that it not only happened but wasn't all that uncommon either. He came back next day and said he'd talked to his colleuges and they had never heard of that either! I was feeling confused at this point. I did a quick check and even found some modern examples of airliners having to steer using engines, one even making a successful approach!
So my question is obviously, has anybody else heard of this? Please confirm that this can be done (obviously only in emergency situations). And why would a bunch of multi engined USAF pilots never had heard of such a thing?

[SYDCBRWOD]

Probably not a case of it can't be done, more a case is why would you want to do it when you have a rudder. If you are forced to 'steer' using differential thrust because you have lost your tail, then you have larger problems than just how to steer.

[Evan]

Just remembered another question:
I while back, i was talking over the net about WW2. In particular about how so many bombers, American and English who had had their control surfaces completely shot up or control cables cut from German fighters. These bombers had to steer (is that the right spelling or am i talking bovine?) with their engines to get home. A bloke piped up and said he was an ex-USAF pilot and had never heard of an aircraft (multi engined) steering with engines! I obviously asked him what he flew and he replied eight engines aircraft. I somewhat untactfully blurted out "oh so you flew B-52s!?" He neither confirmed or denied it so i presume i was right. (can't think of too many more eight engined aircraft.) I assured him that it not only happened but wasn't all that uncommon either. He came back next day and said he'd talked to his colleuges and they had never heard of that either! I was feeling confused at this point. I did a quick check and even found some modern examples of airliners having to steer using engines, one even making a successful approach!
So my question is obviously, has anybody else heard of this? Please confirm that this can be done (obviously only in emergency situations). And why would a bunch of multi engined USAF pilots never had heard of such a thing?

UAL Flight 232

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_flight_232

[KGEG]

Also, JAL 123. Although the plane was too damaged anyway (though the pilots didn't know where the damage had occurred or why) , but the pilots still experimented with steering the plane with thrust, alas unsuccessfully to a point to prevent a disaster.

"The pilots managed a measure of control by using engine thrust. They discovered that by giving full throttle they could cause the plane to rise out of a nose-dive, and by reducing power the plane would slow enough to lower the nose from uncontrolled ascent. Similarly, they found that giving more power to the left or right engines and reducing power to the opposite would cause the plane to turn somewhat. These improvisations proved helpful, but further measures to exert control, such as lowering the landing gear and flaps, interfered with control by throttle, and the plane's uncontrollability once again escalated."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAL123

[Gabriel]

And also a FedEx or UPS Airbus in Iraq which was hit by a missile. This one landed successfully in an airport (JAL crashed against a mountain and UAL crash-landed in Sioux City airport resulting in a destroyed airplane and several fatal casualties)

[Curtis Malone]

And also a FedEx or UPS Airbus in Iraq which was hit by a missile.

It was DHL, actually.

[Jingogunner]

Al Haynes

So my question is obviously, has anybody else heard of this?

There are a number of big jets that steered with their engines after a failure of some sort. The most famous is probably Captain Al Haynes whose DC10 lost the tail engine which also took out all the hydraulics. You can watch the Air crash Investigations movie of it on utube, just type in Air Crash Investigations and scroll through and check the videos out - sorry I can't remember the flight number, but I think it was American Airlines. Captain Haynes is interviewd on the movie and this accident gave rise to the CRM ethos, I believe. Wish Captain Haynes would come on ADC so I could ask him stuff.

[decker1993]

NASA did purposly with MD-11 on August 29, 1995. They were developing a software that will assist flying with thrust alone in cause control system failure.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/pastprojects/PCA/index.html

Dont know if the system is stalled in jets today.

[Luka]

[quote=decker1993;551930]NASA did purposly with MD-11 on August 29, 1995. They were developing a software that will assist flying with thrust alone in cause control system failure.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/pastprojects/PCA/index.html

Had no idea about this one! Ceretainly proves the concept. Thanks man.

[Gabriel]

NASA did purposly with MD-11 on August 29, 1995. They were developing a software that will assist flying with thrust alone in cause control system failure.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/pastprojects/PCA/index.html

Dont know if the system is stalled in jets today.

A computer received the pilot's input from the classic yoke and commanded thrust changes to comply with the pilot's input.

The pilot's would be indirectly control the airplane with thrust commands without the need to manipulate the thrust levers.

NASA proved that the system worked. They got as far as actually landing the plane with the hydros turned off.

However, the system was never implemented due to economic reasons. It was considered that the total loss of control authority was such a remote event that the required money could save more lives if put somewhere else.

[Luka]

Captain Haynes is interviewd on the movie and this accident gave rise to the CRM ethos, I believe. Wish Captain Haynes would come on ADC so I could ask him stuff.[/quote]

- Forgive my ignorance, but CRM ethos?

[SYDCBRWOD]

Captain Haynes is interviewd on the movie and this accident gave rise to the CRM ethos, I believe. Wish Captain Haynes would come on ADC so I could ask him stuff.

- Forgive my ignorance, but CRM ethos?[/quote]

Cockpit Resource Management.

NASA did purposly with MD-11 on August 29, 1995. They were developing a software that will assist flying with thrust alone in cause control system failure.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/pastprojects/PCA/index.html

Dont know if the system is stalled in jets today.

Its not. The USN and (may even be NASA as well) are looking into this as well (it's mainly a software development issue) as front line aircraft are more likely to sustain damage to their control surfaces. The idea is that the aircraft will automatically compensate for the missing or damaged control surfaces so the pilot doesn't need to. He/she will just fly as normal with thesoftware using whatever remaining capabilities to try and compensate. I know that recently they were flying a F/A 18 with the new capability.