Air France 447 - On topic only!

[Jpmkam]

Ok, I read the report. Kind of disappointing. I thought there were to be new revelations, but I don't see many. Really, is that all they said in the cockpit the whole time?

The report did mention that the THS and elevator movements were consistent with pilot's inputs, if that puts to rest some earlier discussion on this thread, though it's too bad in a way the controls did what they were supposed to - where are those protections when you need them?

For an agency that's all about standardization, why is it no two reports have the same format? I feel like they put this out because they said there would be something by the end of July, and so here it is... something by the end of July - let's see if we can get away with it.

How could the pilots never mention the stall condition even after the captain returned to the cockpit, with the stall warning going off and on?

[Evan]

Air France defended the pilots' performance, saying there was "no reason to question the crew's technical skills" in the face of "multiple improbable factors."

Uh-huh. But there's plenty of reason to question their basic airmanship skills. Air France will not wiggle out of this one.

[guamainiac]

I think the revelations are there as they have been all all along. They are just subtle and hardly worthy of note. But the signs are there.

They had anticipated being at a higher altitude during that portion of the trip, but sadly they, the pilots and machines plans were foiled by that tropical system that led to a higher than expected temperature and foiled their climb as noted just before the Captain turned in for his rest.

But they did climb. Despite the limitations of the machine they went higher for a bit. Perhaps they saw what they wanted to see and who are they to argue with good fortune? Much like a middle age chap like myself who when crossing a street thinks he see an attractive young woman flirt a bit. Did she wink at me and was that a hint of a come hither smile that formed at the corner of her lip? Of course it was, see, I haven't lost it. Now in reality, we both know that I have not been the object of a true flirtation in at least twenty years but the delusion is just so flattering? Was that bit of gain in altitude enough to plant seeds of doubt that would later cause confusion despite what little hope there was .. if indeed there was ... much apparent logic; logic sufficient enough to put them on the proper path or action?

In this case, the flutter of the lashes and smile was caused perhaps by that warm and rising tropical convection. Mother nature, like the sirens had lured them into believing and in the dark and cloud there was nothing to give them a hint of the real situation.

In classic cascade effect, the real situation was obscured by the tiny crystals of ice that were forming. Perhaps any real signs that would have shattered the illusion were being lost in the battle of the self, what we see, what is real or what we expect to see and hear. Sure there is a stall horn but we have a positive rate of climb?

[Evan]

In this case, the flutter of the lashes and smile was caused perhaps by that warm and rising tropical convection. Mother nature, like the sirens had lured them into believing and in the dark and cloud there was nothing to give them a hint of the real situation.

I give you points for the most bizarre analogy of pilot behavior thus far. But if there was any flirting going on, it was the management of Air France flirting with the delusion that they could make profits without the expense of thorough pilot training. Hopefully, the ensuing lawsuits sting them back to reality.

Sure there is a stall horn but we have a positive rate of climb?

Of course, why wouldn't there be? They were increasing the lift coefficient. Before you get stall, you get lift. Then you die. But perhaps they don't teach that at Air France sunday school.

[TeeVee]

I give you points for the most bizarre analogy of pilot behavior thus far. But if there was any flirting going on, it was the management of Air France flirting with the delusion that they could make profits without the expense of thorough pilot training. Hopefully, the ensuing lawsuits sting them back to reality.

holy shit! is this EVAN advocating a lawsuit, or lawsuits?????????????? is he sitting back and saying that lawsuits actually accomplish something? HOLY SHIT

[TeeVee]

and maybe, just maybe, AF failed to train its pilots because it relied so heavily on the bullet-proof automation of the much praised HAL, err i mean airbus systems.

either way, the result is pretty much as expected: all the acars messages and failures of various sorts will be overlooked by most and the poorly trained pilots will bear the brunt of the blame. AF will say its training met with French standards as well as airbus' standards and both will likely escape without getting screwed too badly. the BEA and other french agencies as they have already, will skate even though they too knew about the initial culprits here--the pitot tubes--yet did not mandate changing them out earlier. yeah yeah, they are all susceptible... point is the model on af447 was a known bad part and should have been pulled off long before.

rant over...for now anyway

[guamainiac]

The Sirens of the Greeks are not exactly obscure are they. Some were said to have wings for that matter and ...

So Evan, you do not think that the crew may have been so distracted or lured into seeing what it wanted to see that it provided sufficient confusion? Wasn't there a crew in Florida that was so mesmerized by a burned out bulb that they flew a perfectly good L-1011 into the swamp off Miami?

[Evan]

The Sirens of the Greeks are not exactly obscure are they. Some were said to have wings for that matter and ...

So Evan, you do not think that the crew may have been so distracted or lured into seeing what it wanted to see that it provided sufficient confusion? Wasn't there a crew in Florida that was so mesmerized by a burned out bulb that they flew a perfectly good L-1011 into the swamp off Miami?

No, I think the crew were untrained in how to manually handle the aircraft in RVSM airspace, and entirely ignorant of UAS procedure as well (and it was a known danger that initiated recommendations to upgrade pitots). The PF's first action was to correct a roll maneuver with pitch inputs, and this resulted in a stall warning which went unheeded. All CRM went out the window. This is a high crime that can not be excused for any reason. This is a betrayal of the trust we place in the CAA's and precedent for a top to bottom investigation of the entire aviation industry.

I actually feel sorry for the Airbus engineers who made this incredible aircraft, only to see it tragically destroyed by human ignorance. It must make them feel a bit of that futility in trying to make technology safer while human intelligence erodes to defeat them.

Man, in so many arenas of governance right now, I feel truly disgusted and betrayed.

(and it took this long for a disclosure that these pilots never had the proper training ~ we didn't need the flight recorders to learn that, just some corporate honesty. If they had never been found, Air France would never had admitted this. I hope they get wiped out for this. It would be a much-needed lesson for the industry. And heads need to roll at the BEA as well)

[EconomyClass]

Define "malfunction". Everything can perform as designed. But if the design insured failure in a given scenario, who cares if there was "no malfunction". I think we're solidly in spin mode now. Guess the court cases will have to unravel all the obfuscation.

[Schwartz]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/time-codes-cockpit-conversations-from-flight-af447s-final-minutes/article2115202/

It reads pretty damning for the pilots, but I'll let the experts judge:

These are key elements of cockpit conversations in the final eight minutes of Flight AF447 among the two co-pilots and the captain. The pilot at the controls is identified as the Pilot Flying, or PF. The Pilot Not Flying, or PNF, is responsible for monitoring instruments and radio communications. The senior pilot, the captain, was taking his rest period, a normal occurrence on very long flights. As the emergency unfolds, the more junior of the two co-pilots called the captain and asked him to return to the cockpit. Translations from French by Reuters.

02:06:04: The PF calls the cabin crew, telling them to watch out because turbulence is coming up. “It’ll move about a bit more than at the moment,” he says.

02:08:07: The PNF says “you can maybe go a little to the left” and the plane began a slight turn to the left. Turbulence increased slightly and the crew decided to reduce speed.

02:10:05: The autopilot and auto-thrust disengages and the PF says “I have the controls.” The aircraft begins to roll to the right and the PF tries to raise the nose and turn left. The stall warning sounds twice in a row. There is a sharp fall in speed as the aircraft climbs rapidly in response to the pilot’s nose-up command.

02:10:16: The PNF says “so, we’ve lost the speeds” meaning the instrument display no longer registers speed. This is due to the three pitot tubes, or speed sensors, were in disagreement, likely because of temporary icing of one or more tubes. Those invalid speeds last only 29 seconds.

02:10:50: The PNF begins the first of several tries to call the captain back to the cockpit.

02:10:51: The stall warning – a loud chime followed by an artificial voice saying “Stall Stall” is triggered again. The PF continues trying to pull the nose up. Altitude reaches its maximum of about 38,000 feet. Neither of the pilots make any reference to the stall warning, or formally identified the stall situation, investigators say.

02:11:32: The PF says: “I don't have control of the plane. I’ve totally lost control of the plane.”

02:11:42: The captain enters the cockpit, about 90 seconds after the autopilot disconnected. In the following seconds, all the recorded speeds become invalid again and the stall warning stops after being on continuously for 54 seconds. The altitude is about 35,000 feet and the plane is falling vertically – as shown on the instruments – at 10,000 feet per minute with the nose still held high. The Airbus is rolling from side-to-side with an arc of up to 40-degrees.

02:12:02: The PF says “I don’t have any more indications,” and the PNF says “we have no valid indications,” referring to instruments, although the flight-data recorder indicates all instruments continued to display valid readings throughout – save for the airspeed indicator.

About 15 seconds later: The PF pushes the nose down. The PNF says: “You’re going up. Go down, go down, go down.” “Am I going down now?” the PF says. “No, you’re going up,” the captain says.

02:13:32: The PF notes the altimeter – the instrument that measures height above ground – is showing the aircraft passing through 10,000 feet and falling at about that rate per minute.

About a minutes later: The PNF and the PF are both trying to control the aircraft, and doing opposite things. “Go ahead, you have the controls,” the PF says, and hands it over.

02:14:18: Just before impact, the captain urges the new PF to pull up. “We’re pulling up, we’re pulling up, we’re pulling up,” he says seconds before the recordings stop.

[Jpmkam]

So the Captain returns to the cockpit yet there's no advice or communication of the situation heard on the CVR until just before impact? There's no communication between the pilots flying regarding the stall situation. Seems telling by what wasn't said.

[TeeVee]

three idiots who should never have been flying. 200+ people paid with their lives for the absolute gross incompetence of these morons.

i imagine the senior pilot stood there strokin himself for 1.5 minutes while the other idiots crashed the plane. too bad they died...i'd like to see them fry in a very public way

[Rusty]

Maybe you're anger should be directed at Air France for not training the pilots to handle this situation

[Haendli]

Do not Blame but find solutions for the future

...

I actually feel sorry for the Airbus engineers who made this incredible aircraft, only to see it tragically destroyed by human ignorance. It must make them feel a bit of that futility in trying to make technology safer while human intelligence erodes to defeat them.

Sorry to make a comment as a absolute non expert here, but i hope that all involved parties (manufacturer, airline, and flight-security authorities) are looking into such an incident cause they focus of lessons learned and not sit back und are happy they can blame someone else.

AND i hope that all understand that tragedies like AF447 give a sign to improve TOGETHER an industry that is responcible for thousands of lives DAILY.

Regarding evans quote the airbus engeneers (as Boeing,Embraer, ..)also should think what to do to make ignoring of signals the plane gives to a pilot more complicated. So everybody has their lessons learned.

Rem. in 4 weeks i fly with an AF Airbus into the crash area and i am not bothered by fear because i dont blame an manufacturer or airline nor crew and things that can happen HAPPEN.

Greets Haendli

[Jingogunner]

The captain and his pitot, aliens and ice at 38000 feet.

As one also poorly trained, I can sympathise with pilots who lack training - everything is just so baffling. Let me see, have I got this right - they are flying along, a bit of turbulence develops. They are at 35,000 feet. For some reason, the PF decides to pull back on the sidestick, to gain altitude because he thinks, perhaps, they are going down. The pitot tubes then become infected with ice. Ice? Ice at 38,000 feet? Don't they mean aliens? Anyway, they continue to struggle upwards, only now there is no airspeed indication for 29 crucial seconds. The pilots make irrelevant smalltalk which has not been disclosed to the public, I guess, or perhaps they are saying something like oh mommy help me, which is why they are reported as saying nothing. The plane stalls. The pilots make no comments about the stall. Really? The captain returns to the flightdeck and starts playing with his pitot. The aircraft stalls vertically; it is in a nose-up but more or less level attitude as it falls towards the sea. The final comments of the captain are to 'pull up'. I cannot draw any conclusions from this scenario except to suspect there is other available information which has not been disclosed to us. Not necessarily aliens, but something embarrassing to the powerful. Possibly something more than poor training.

I wonder why it would not be possible to build a third pitot tube which has a cover removable by remote control so that when the regular pitots are suspect or obviously failed, the emergency pitot can be brought online.