Air France 447 - On topic only!

[Black Ram]

So, right after reaching FL380, PF repeatedly said he had lost control of the airplane. Seconds later, PNF took control using the priority button, announcing "controls to the left" and moved his sidestick to the left. Immediately, PF retook control using his priority button, without any announcement.

[guamainiac]

What do the regs or AF sop's say about having a designated PC?

In the absence of a the Captain the ______ becomes the command pilot?

This is almost unreal. No who has the airplane?

[Drizzt]

Is the Junior F/O, the PF, the stubborn one? I read somewhere it seems 2 minutes before impact the PNF wanted to take control, but the Junior PF brushed him off. But from what I've read so far, no one identified the stall.

HeLLo
Yes to all, hélas.
From the beginning, relationship between the three pilots seems strange.
I hope someone will able to translate the dialogue for you.
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[Gabriel]

But from what I've read so far, no one identified the stall.

Sure they did. If their airmanship was not enough to recognize a stall situation, an aural warning shouting STALL STALL STALL over an over sure had to be a clue.

What didn't happen was the FORMAL identification and addressing.

[Gabriel]

I think as soon as you go off autoflight [etc, etc, etc and more etc] Or automation...

Then I don't know what we are discussing. We agree 100%.

[Black Ram]

Sure they did. If their airmanship was not enough to recognize a stall situation, an aural warning shouting STALL STALL STALL over an over sure had to be a clue.

I can't wait until I can verify all this using the forthcoming English version of the report, but I read at some point the PF or PNF asked why they are still descending so fast, with the PF having the sidestick all the way back. The Captain apparently said he didn't know why. The captain had probably returned only after the STALL warnings, but there were signs - difficulty controlling pitch and roll, the aircraft rolling right, when the stick was all the way left. There's also a mention of speedbrakes, I think - so maybe they thought they were overspeeding.

[Drizzt]

so maybe they thought they were overspeeding.

Yes, it appears one of the pilot was thinking that badly.
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[guamainiac]

Black Ram and his narrative have me wondering if perhaps we are witness to the first of some odd video game related syndrome. Just the comments about the way one brushes off the other or Drizzt says they can't work well together.

I starts to sound more like two teenagers locked in a video game of "Mortal Kombat" or something.

Is it possible that they block out the circuits that hard wire them to reality and it becomes a game?

What is this translation of the CVR going to tell us? Right now without anything it leaves the imagination to roam at will. Maybe they are not acting like they are flying an airplane because when the old hand checked out they stopped flying and the the game started. Yeah, this is rubber room material but then?

[Evan]

So, right after reaching FL380, PF repeatedly said he had lost control of the airplane. Seconds later, PNF took control using the priority button, announcing "controls to the left" and moved his sidestick to the left. Immediately, PF retook control using his priority button, without any announcement.

It's basically the French revolution up there. It seems to me that the PIC is the one violating the CRM. Here's what I can make of it without translation:

2 h 10 min 06 - A/P disconnects, F/O (PF) takes priority.

2 h 11 min 32 - F/O declares that he has lost control of the airplane.

2 h 11 min 38 - The PIC takes control from the F/O by requesting priority.

2 h 12 min 16 - The F/O takes control from the PIC by requesting priority.

2 h 12 min 59 - The PIC makes stick movements without requesting priority.

2 h 13 min 23 - The PIC makes stick movements again without requesting priority. « Dual input » warning sounds.

2 h 13 min 41 - VS : « Dual input »
2 h 13 min 43 - VS : « Dual input »
2 h 13 min 45 - VS : « Dual input »
2 h 13 min 47 - VS : « Dual input »

2 h 13 min 45 - PIC asks for priority, F/O gives over priority to PIC.

2 h 14 min 21 - F/O takes priority from PIC without requesting priority (not much being said at that point).

Either pilot can 'latch' priority by holding down the priority button. This deactivates the other stick, but it takes 40 seconds of holding the button down. Even then, the other pilot can simply reactivate his stick by pushing his priority button. Whoever pushes their button last has priority.

The system obviously wasn't designed for combative behavior.

Lack of training in manual flight/UAS + lack of CRM = fin.

[Gabriel]

Lack of training in manual flight/UAS + lack of CRM = fin.

Ahem! I thought we had reached an agreement.
Isn't a term missing from your addition?

[Evan]

Ahem! I thought we had reached an agreement.
Isn't a term missing from your addition?

I consider basic airmanship to fall under the aegis of 'manual flight' training, but expand it if you like. I don't know how to write an equation for the minimum requirement to = pilot material. You're the mathematical one here, maybe you can take a stab at that.

[Evan]

The captain had probably returned only after the STALL warnings, but there were signs - difficulty controlling pitch and roll, the aircraft rolling right, when the stick was all the way left.

According to the latest brief, there was also detectable stall buffet.

[Black Ram]

It's basically the French revolution up there. It seems to me that the PIC is the one violating the CRM.

This is getting confusing, because control changed several times. By the PIC, you mean the more experienced copilot - the one who had control during the final moments? Or the junior F/O?

[Black Ram]

According to the latest brief, there was also detectable stall buffet.

Which some may have confused with the signs of overspeed....

[guamainiac]

Is the pilot in the left seat by tradition the PIC?

In your world of regulated aviation, who is legally the PIC who get's to make the log book entry?

If the Captain goes off the flight deck to satisfy a regulatory or rest requirement someone has to be designated.

It actually sounds like these two "FO" types were in a PIC whizzing contest. I have obviously never been in the position to make that decision. In my simple bottom feeder world if the other guy said "My airplane" it probably was or his name was on the rental receipt/club member.