Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[justLOT787]

Of course, you have all the evidence.
Well, not all but a lot.
Some at least.
Or just a little bit.
Any?

I'm just wondering how on earth all you have all the evidence (charts, graphs, measurements) if Russia still to this day has the black boxes and has not released them in to the Polish hands!

[Northwester]

The CVR also has something in the lines of "we don't see a shit" seconds before the crash. And it has no strange engine sounds. And no engines anomalities were recorded in the FDR.

Oh sorry, I forgot allt hose were tampered with.



You are a liar and I'm a stupid that falls in your lies over and over.

First of all when I made that offer I never heard from you that you would accept it. So I assumed you did not. Second, any new evidence, information, or testimony is worth looking at but it does not have to be accepted at face value. Some of it might be more, some less accurate.

I don't use names in this forum. I don't call people clowns, trolls, liars or the likes. It is just a matter of basic respect. As much as I wanted to stay within the technical aspects of this crash, I was provoked to broaden the discussion for a while. But that led to nowhere for you are dealing with opinions and prejudices, and these are always subjective.

As to the functioning of the engines, the Russians stated that they were working ok, but there is the gray zone where there is no data, and the N2 values are nowhere in the report. So this is not as clear as it appears to be.

Again, if you want me to limit the discussion to the flight issues only, before the plane hit the ground, say so clearly. Otherwise don't call me a liar.

[guamainiac]

And if this was a clear and sunny CAVU day what would have happened?

Nothing.

Oh, where is the fog machine? Do not bring the history of 1939 into this. As an American Pole I learned that stuff in 1955 so it was hardly secret.

But, I learned as an investigator that someone will always plant a statement of fact and truth to make your head nod "yes" and the second statement then by default is true?

No way! Go play "Junior Sleuth" with someone else.

Mods ... As a Polish American I am becoming offended. Please close this thread.

[Evan]

Like I said and no one will ever convince me otherwise. This was not just a normal accident that happen all this was staged and planed by Tusk and Putin.

Obviously. Staged and... planed. Diabolically planed. Just like the moon landings and 9/11. I weep for Poland. Well... phew... that's all out in the open, so I guess we'll be folding up this epic thread and getting on with our own lives now...

[Northwester]

This is the trajectory according to Binienda & Co (green line). The lower numbers of baro readings seem to match the actual altitude, the higher numbers (70 - 100) are off. Some of it could be explained by the gap in the CVR, but not entirely.

[Gabriel]

I don't use names in this forum. I don't call people clowns, trolls, liars or the likes. It is just a matter of basic respect.

I don't either, except with you. Maybe there's a meaning...

[Evan]

I don't use names in this forum. I don't call people clowns, trolls, liars or the likes. It is just a matter of basic respect. As much as I wanted to stay within the technical aspects of this crash, I was provoked to broaden the discussion for a while. But that led to nowhere...

Your respect is appreciated, Northwester, but I think you suffer from an obsession that clouds your judgment and allows you to place validity on theories that are quite illogical. As I said before, I don't think you are a bad egg, I just think that you can't see the forest for the trees. I realize that this has become your personal mystery to solve, but there really is not mystery here. It really does add up. This is one of the most obviously explainable accidents in recent history. It reads like an equation for disaster, and an object lesson in what not to do when flying VIP's into substandard airstrips. It adds up perfectly, to the extent that, had this plane not crashed, you would be left wondering how miraculous it was that it hadn't (ill-experienced crew making a zero visibility approach using the wrong altimeters and autoflight procedures at an unfamiliar airstrip with no precision guidance and sketchy ATC search radar + distractions in the cockpit/violations of the sterile cockpit doctrine).

Meanwhile, even the Polish authorities have accepted this and moved on. LOT is now in charge. This is one of the best cases of remediation I have seen following such a tragedy. I applaud the Polish government for coming clean and cleaning house. Now, can we end it?

[Northwester]

But the entertainment value of it is enormous.

I think deep down you are a good man, but you know what you know. This is how this world operates.

Whether we participate in it or not, it's going to run its course that is beyond anyone's control. History's lesson.

[Evan]

But the entertainment value of it is enormous.

No! 96 people died because of officious arrogance, blind ambition and disregard for the discipline of aviation. That's a tragedy, nothing more. There is no entertainment value in that, and it is not the place to invent any. Please stop.

[Northwester]

No! 96 people died because of officious arrogance, blind ambition and disregard for the discipline of aviation. That's a tragedy, nothing more. There is no entertainment value in that, and it is not the place to invent any. Please stop.

Are you serious here?

Evan#1617:"Boring! Can we please get back to the secret Russian mind-control ray and KGB EMT death squad? That was much more entertaining and the obvious truth no longer has any value here. I don't want answers. I want more questions. Northwester, show us some more puzzling graphics."

[Evan]

Are you serious here?

Evan#1617:"Boring! Can we please get back to the secret Russian mind-control ray and KGB EMT death squad? That was much more entertaining and the obvious truth no longer has any value here. I don't want answers. I want more questions. Northwester, show us some more puzzling graphics."

We call that irony. I think you have this in Poland as well. Sometimes irony is helpful is showing a person how ridiculous their ideas are. I'm trying everything here.

[starchyme]

I generally don't comment, but sometimes a few things must be said as a reminder to some:

I once supported the plausibility of a question whether the ILS could be tampered with do make the crew think they are higher than they really are, like in Die Hard II. Off Course many people completely thrashed the mentioning of that.

One person's remark was that if one could make up ridiculous causes like that, he said he may as well come up with his own and that was for snakes, or something, to get loose, attacked the pilots, and the plane ended up landing short. Off course everyone thought that was cute. Yet a few months later a small plane crashed, presumably because small crocodiles, which a person tried to smuggle, escaped from the hand luggage. The subsequent panic on the plane caused the balance of the plane to not be maintainable anymore by the pilot, and the plane crashed.

So in all, the person making a claim that the ILS was tampered with, was as plausible as snakes (or crocodiles) causing the crash.

Who can forget the cover-up by 911 and the pentagon. To what lengths did authorities (governments) go then? I mean:
1) Where was the damage to the building from the wings?
2) Why was the hole so small?
3) Why did the plane hit the renovating part of the building?
4) How did the plane not knock over trees and lamps on its way to the building...it had to come in quite low?
5) Why was cameras confiscated
6) How many people said it was a plane, yet, when a small video was released, no plane could fit into the frames?
7) Not to mention the explosion caught on a still frame before one of the planes hit the buiding
and how did building 7 implode when it was not hit by a plane?
9) How did the military failed four times to protect its air-space?
9) and so on and so on...

So, when a person makes a suggestion, like "This president was taken out for preventing serious vaccinations bills be passed", which was a theory I heard once, why not? Have you not seen worse things around 911 and Pearl Harbour?

Money and power is an interesting playfield, and then on the other hand is human error. Combining both makes an almost perfect weapon, where evidence disappear or get altered and only gut feelings remain. Since nobody knows what really happened, and what is real and what is not, give some the benefit of the doubt at least.

For those who like to thrash and psycho-Analise any statements.. please don't bother. I really don't care and I don't follow all threads enthusiastically so I probably won't be around to defend any lashing out soon.

Peace!

[Evan]

So in all, the person making a claim that the ILS was tampered with, was as plausible as snakes (or crocodiles) causing the crash.

Well, the key word here is plausible. Neither is plausible. If you change the word to possible, that changes things. It is possible for snakes or crocodiles to get loose on a plane and cause a crash, although this is really at the limit of possibility. It is not possible to "lower" the ILS groundslope at the airport because it is merely a beacon, and part of the signal reflects off the ground. It is possible to bend the ILS through radio interference, but AFAIK that would only concern the localizer part of the system, making only the lateral guidance inaccurate.

To get one step ahead of you, it is also not possible to climb onto the wing of a 747 on takeoff roll, remain there for several minutes, pull some conveniently located fuel jettison lever, fall off unharmed and have the stream of fuel catch fire, leap off the ground and explode the airplane.

Nor is it plausible.

[guamainiac]

There was a recent incident where an alligator got lose and the pax rushed to the back causing the CG to go wacky.

[guamainiac]

I keep asking myself how did like 10,000 people waiting in traffic mistake a plane for a French cruise missle too.

Amazing? Like that guy who makes elephants disappear.