Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Evan]

We can safely assume that the tree did not break off the wing. So what made them lose control?

Well, we can safely assume that the assymentrical loss of airfoil due to tree impact (resulting from CFIT) caused them to lose control. Your move sir...

[guamainiac]

Let me think. This will take a moment.

As the wing deformed and the slat popped out of it's track.

After it popped out of it's tract it impacted a birch, red maple, silver, aspen or other "wet footed species".

Sorry, the dendrologist and the former structures mechanic is too.

[Northwester]

Then of course there's the subtext to this whole thing, namely, if everyone did not die in the crash, then they were executed on site by the Russians. But of course if you came out and explicitly drew that conclusion, as preposterous as it is, you're worried that you would swiftly be identified as a nutcase. Trust me, you have nothing to worry about - might as well go for broke.

I absolutely do not deserve the attention I am getting from you.

[Northwester]

Well, we can safely assume that the assymentrical loss of airfoil due to tree impact (resulting from CFIT) caused them to lose control. Your move sir...

So they did not lose control of the ac before they hit the trees?

[Gabriel]

With one exception. I suspect that fire was an important contributing factor to the fatalities count.

Well, the final report has the usual "the plane was destroyed by impact forces and post-crash fire", that the accident was considered "not survibable" and it doesn't mention the cause of deaths.

However I seriously suspect that this accident would have had no survivors even without fire. The plane was destroyed by the impact, did you see the photos?

And there were differences that made the Polish crash presumibly more deadly by impact forces: It was at a faster speed, full TOGA and climbed quite a bit before rolling inverted and diving into the ground (according to the several "official" versions, of course). The MD-80 case was flying level "skimming the treatops" without the pilots knowing. THe next thing the knew they were rolling inverted into the dense forest and down to the ground. I expect the vertical impact angle and speed to be quite less in the MD-80 case than in the Polish one.

[Gabriel]

You're willing to dismiss the significant differences between the Tu-154 and the crashes you cite, but want to focus on the one possible difference between the Tu-154 and the crash Gabriel cites, even though it's a more viable comparison.

Is this making sense yet?

Yes. Actually, it makes a lot of sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That's the cornerstone of the Conspiracy Theory science.

[Gabriel]

So they did not lose control of the ac before they hit the trees?

No, except if you think that not knowing how to go around can be considereded loss of control.

[Northwester]

No, except if you think that not knowing how to go around can be considereded loss of control.

Well, one day we'll hopefully know what the real trajectory was and if the GA had a chance to be successful. We know more about this accident from the tireless work of many bloggers who sift through available information and present their conlusions, but the witnesses are still afraid to talk, video clips are being removed from youtube, people are being threatened (Binienda received some threats - he said that he has no intention of committing a suicide, in case something happend to him), Edmund Klich, the head of Air Accidents Investigation Committee who secretly recorded and released his conversations with the Defence Minister and others, is about to lose his job. This is not a normal situation.

[Gabriel]

This is not a normal situation.

Certainly not. No conspiracy is a normal situation. And this one seems to be a full-blown conspiracy:

CVR and FDR tampered with.
Artificial fog.
Sabotaged plane.
Fake autposies.
Dozens of trees cut to create a fake crash scene.
Parts of the plane moved and lifted with straps for the same.
Survivors shot.
Forced suicides.
People warning that if he is foud death, it's not a suicide.
Fucking American YouTube (owned by Google) removing sensible videos from the web.
Threats and fer to speak up.
Hidden cammeras and mics.
And I still don't get how on Earth the plane got that close to the ground to begin with, unless remote controlled what would be the strawbery of the cake.
Am I missing something?

If they wanted to kill the Polish president they could have done it in a more subtle and elegant (not to mention economic) way.

[Evan]

So they did not lose control of the ac before they hit the trees?

Technically, they lost control when they gave in to VIP pressure instead of diverting to a suitable aerodrome.

But the plane was controllable until the tree severed the wing. That's what we can safely assume.

Your man Binienda continues to disappoint me. That latest video reveals a lack of consideration for the underlying structure of the wing and the behavior of such structures upon collision with a tree. What I've seen from him assumes that a tree will sever a clean cut through the wing, as if the tree is carbon steel and the wing is a solid piece of material. The reason the slat extends beyond the break in the wing is that, after impacting the tree, the missing portion of the wing tore away due to forces transmitted to a structural weakness there, which is not exactly where the tree impacted. The undamaged slat, obviously, is attached at a point before that structural break and extends a bit beyond it but does not extend to the point of actual tree impact, so it remains attached. But this is obvious.

phew... now where do I pick up my Ph.D.?

[Northwester]

Certainly not. No conspiracy is a normal situation. And this one seems to be a full-blown conspiracy:

CVR and FDR tampered with.
Artificial fog.
Sabotaged plane.
Fake autposies.
Dozens of trees cut to create a fake crash scene.
Parts of the plane moved and lifted with straps for the same.
Survivors shot.
Forced suicides.
People warning that if he is foud death, it's not a suicide.
Fucking American YouTube (owned by Google) removing sensible videos from the web.
Threats and fer to speak up.
Hidden cammeras and mics.
And I still don't get how on Earth the plane got that close to the ground to begin with, unless remote controlled what would be the strawbery of the cake.
Am I missing something?

If they wanted to kill the Polish president they could have done it in a more subtle and elegant (not to mention economic) way.

I will save this post and repost in 5 years, with your permission of course.

[Northwester]

Technically, they lost control when they gave in to VIP pressure instead of diverting to a suitable aerodrome.

But the plane was controllable until the tree severed the wing. That's what we can safely assume.

Your man Binienda continues to disappoint me. That latest video reveals a lack of consideration for the underlying structure of the wing and the behavior of such structures upon collision with a tree. What I've seen from him assumes that a tree will sever a clean cut through the wing, as if the tree is carbon steel and the wing is a solid piece of material. The reason the slat extends beyond the break in the wing is that, after impacting the tree, the missing portion of the wing tore away due to forces transmitted to a structural weakness there, which is not exactly where the tree impacted. The undamaged slat, obviously, is attached at a point before that structural break and extends a bit beyond it but does not extend to the point of actual tree impact, so it remains attached. But this is obvious.

phew... now where do I pick up my Ph.D.?

To make sure I undertood your correctly, you are saying that the tree hit the slat and generated a force strong enough to rip off a 5m section of the wing without damaging the slat?

Sorry, no PhD. Try again.

[Northwester]

Your man Binienda continues to disappoint me.

Just to clarify: the video you are referring to was not prepared by Binienda and is not connected to him in any way I am aware of.

[Evan]

To make sure I undertood your correctly, you are saying that the tree hit the slat and generated a force strong enough to rip off a 5m section of the wing without damaging the slat?

Sorry, no PhD. Try again.

NO! The tree hit the outer wing section and generated a force strong enough to rip that section off at the weakest structural point. It did not shear it off like a knife through butter. IT DID NOT HIT THE SLAT. The slat extends beyond the break because it is attached to the remaining wing section and not the part that departed in flight.

Again, this is obvious, and I'm curious as to why someone with your level of scrutiny cannot follow it.

[Evan]

I will save this post and repost in 5 years, with your permission of course.

When it will be post #110,756 on this thread.