Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Northwester]

Yes.

1) There are some inconsistencies in the report.

2) Those inconsistencies indicate some sort of big conspiracy, possibly even a murder plot.

3) Most of us don't buy into number 2, but we are wrong as it's crystal clear to you.

So for you there is not even a remote possibility that something might not be quite right here?

[3WE]

So for you there is not even a remote possibility that something might not be quite right here?

Go re read what I wrote. Perhaps slower this time. In particular, comment number 1.

[Jonathan_Creek]

2 or 3 seconds, who cares, right? Data granularity.
In this clip a Polish reporter speaking from Smolensk on the day of the crash says:
"... the first information that the accident happend I got by a phone call from one of the participants of the official Polish delegation at 10:40 local time which is 8:40 Polish time, so practically 4 minutes after the crash ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv5FgK7U7Is&NR=1&feature=endscreen

The crash happened at 10:36?

Yes, I have been just an observer of this forum, before I felt like I had something beneficial to contribute; the fact that Polish and international media were quoting the wrong time of the event for over a week.

My first post:

First of all thank you for insightful thread.

The time of the accident was initially established to be 10:56 MSD (08:56 CEST) on 4/10. Week later bells were ringing at that time in Polish cities to commemorate the victims.

In fact Wikipedia entry, as of today, still quotes that time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Po...e_Tu-154_crash

Yet, it was 18 days after the accident that Polish Prime Minister stated that the time of the crash is more likely to be 10:41 MSD (08:41 CEST).

Here is an article form major newspaper http://www.rp.pl/artykul/459542,4685..._ukrywaja.html , magazine http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/sekc...%80%94,57468,1
and here is a press conference with expert - Edmund Klich who (at the time of the conference) was officially involved in the investigation and traveled to Moscow.
http://www.tvn24.pl/12690,1655292,0,...wiadomosc.html

The sources are in Polish but Google Translate now includes this language so you are free to explore on your own.

Now, I do not know if it matters but I decided to contribute this information to this thread. It also shows how, despite living in a global village, we are still unable to communicate clearly and often relay on outdated information (as in this specific case users of Wikipedia definitely do).

Thank you.

In response I was later lectured on Wikipedia functionality by this forum's Wikipedia experts.

[Northwester]

Fucking American YouTube (owned by Google) removing sensible videos from the web.

This is how it's done. Youtube is always happy to oblige.

[Northwester]

A side note about the trees. Initially it looks like there were 2 trees cut but I guess only one was necessary to prove the point so the other one disappeared.

I wonder also how is it possible that the exhaust stream did not blast away the trash and the makeshift shed, not to mention the small bird's nest?

[Geebee]

Bailing out

Well, like many other reasonable people I am beyond the pathos this subject continues to bring up. So I am bailing out as well.

I started this thread ages ago and learned a lot from the senior forum members on the factual and evidence based analysis. I believe the official reports do the same.

Everything else dishonors this thread and the people that died in the crash. Time for closure.

[Jonathan_Creek]

Well, like many other reasonable people I am beyond the pathos this subject continues to bring up. So I am bailing out as well.

I started this thread ages ago and learned a lot from the senior forum members on the factual and evidence based analysis. I believe the official reports do the same.

Everything else dishonors this thread and the people that died in the crash. Time for closure.

Who cares if you "started this thread ages ago" or decided to bail out.
Chill out. Don't be full of pathos. It is not like it will stop because you said so.

[justLOT787]

SO we are nearing the second anniversary of this horrific crash that took out the best of the Polish patriots that fought for Poland to make sure Poland is strong and prosperous.
This topic will never go away like the WW2. We are two years in to it and still we don't have any clear answers, we don't have the black boxes and no plane. The plane will or is scraped because Russians don't want the truth to come out.!! But eventually Putin will be over thrown in Russia and the new Russia will work with Poland and then we will get the real truth even if it will take 50 years.

[Geebee]

Who cares if you "started this thread ages ago" or decided to bail out.
Chill out. Don't be full of pathos. It is not like it will stop because you said so.

I'm the one with pathos here?

[Northwester]

There will be a public hearing at the European Parliament concerning the crash and the status of the investigation. It will take place on March 28th. There is an information site about the hearing:

http://smolenskcrash.eu

I am not sure yet if new findings might be presented there.

[Evan]

There will be a public hearing at the European Parliament concerning the crash and the status of the investigation. It will take place on March 28th. There is an information site about the hearing:

http://smolenskcrash.eu

I am not sure yet if new findings might be presented there.

Great. It has its own website now.

Speakers include:
Marta Kaczyńska daughter of late Polish President Lech Kaczyński and First Lady Maria Kaczyńska.

Maybe she can clear it all up for us.

[Northwester]

In the meantime two more bodies were exhumed and autopsies performed. As a reason the prosecutor stated serious discrepancies between the Russian reports and the factual findings. The families of the victims invited Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist from the US, to participate in the autopsies. Mr. Baden arrived in Poland but so far the prosecutor has not allowed Mr. Baden to participate in the autopsies. Mr. Baden called for x-rays of all victims stating that this is the only way in the current situation to confirm or discard the possibility of an explosion.

[Northwester]

There is an article in the New York Times about the recent developments with autopsies:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/03/23/world/europe/ap-eu-poland-russia-flawed-autopsies.html?_r=2&ref=global-home

The Russians are trying to justify their faulty reports stating that "bodies were fragmented." The last bodies exhumed were in one piece, one of them had no signs of any autopsy performed, and Polish experts could not determine the cause of death because there was, contrary to previous Russian findings, NO DAMAGE to the interior organs. Attached is a part of an article stating that the experts could not determine the cause of death and stating that there was no damage to internal organs.

[Evan]

And here is what they had to say...

Lech Kaczynski was a deeply patriotic leader who was skeptical of Russia, a historic foe that invaded Poland's eastern half during World War II and controlled the country during the Cold War. Most of the people traveling with him were political allies who shared his views, so it's no surprise their families would voice distrust in Russia after the crash.

The presidential delegation was traveling to honor 22,000 Polish officers murdered by Josef Stalin's secret police at the start of World War II in the Katyn forest and other locations. That symbolism only added to the national grief and to the suspicions.

[Northwester]

18 scientists from the Warsaw University, representing Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Computer and Mechanical Engineering Departments, called for "examining the mechanics of the Smolensk crash applying solid scientific methods". The scientists wrote in their declaration that in the Polish investigation "obvious procedures were not followed, the results of kinetic examinations and lab experiments were not presented." They stressed that "the results of independent scientific examinations were not addressed, but conclusions were presented that had no basis in facts, counting on naiveté and lack of knowledge of citizens". They appealed to other scientists to join them.