Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Northwester]

What about some discussion about the substance (post # 1963)?

The main purpose of the hearing was to get the information out to a wider audience.

[Evan]

The main purpose of the hearing was to get the information out to a wider audience.

Northwester, I'm afraid they were preaching to the choir.

[Northwester]

Northwester, I'm afraid they were preaching to the choir.

Not quite. For the first time there was a substantive reporting about the event and the findings of the independent investigation in Polish state TV.

[Gabriel]

The main purpose of the hearing was to get the information out to a wider audience.

For the first time there was a substantive reporting about the event and the findings of the independent investigation in Polish state TV.

Exactly waht I've said. More a press conference than an NTSB-like public hearing.

[Evan]

Is there a transcript available?

If so, did this group propose any alternate scenario of their own to explain the crash? I guess if I was sitting on that panel, I would want to know what exactly these people are getting at.

For instance: not pilot error, two explosions heard... Ok, so why was the plane below runway elevation at the time, beneath MDA, engines at idle, in poor visibility? And so on... can a bomb/missile cause this? No. So... what are you getting at?!

For instance: You say the tree couldn't have caused the crash, so what exactly are you suggesting?

You can throw these things around all day on the internet, but when you convene a hearing at Parliament, you are making official accusations, and you better be ready to state your charges.

Did anyone in this group stand up and suggest to members of the European Parliament that the Russians fabricated the FDR and CVR recordings? Did anyone actually accuse the Russians of murdering these people?

No?

I'm sorry, but the entire thing seems like people seeking publicity more than justice or answers.

[Northwester]

I'm sorry, but the entire thing seems like people seeking publicity more than justice or answers.

Here are the links to testimonies of people seeking publicity.
Ms. Kochanowska:

http://youtu.be/LLerTs4y0MY

And Mr. Baden:

http://youtu.be/5qEbp1qg4SY

[Evan]

Here are the links to testimonies of people seeking publicity.
Ms. Kochanowska:

http://youtu.be/LLerTs4y0MY

And Mr. Baden:
http://youtu.be/5qEbp1qg4SY

It's coming even more into focus now. This was also a forum to express legitimate grievances as to the way certain collateral aspects of the investigation were handled. That is something than can, and should, be taken seriously.

I truly feel sorry for Ms. Kochanowska, because she had to share her legitimate grievances in the same forum as certain wingnuts who shall remain unnamed but whose initials are Mr. Baden.

Her speech concerns the handling of the deceased, and I have little doubt that it was handled very badly, and the next of kin were subjected to unnecessary grief as a result. The Russians (and possibly the Poles) should be reprimanded for this. What does this have to do with determining the cause of the crash?

Nothing.

It's tragic that intelligent family members addressing legitimate issues have to have their views debased and mingled with the musings of beard-scratching conspiracy hobbyists. This is why I revile them.

I only hope Ms. Kochanowska directed a much stronger anger toward the Polish government for allowing a poorly chosen and ill-prepared crew to operate the flight, for this alone is what caused the deaths of their loved ones.

[Gabriel]

Northwester,

http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=181547

[Northwester]

Here's a transcript of the presentation of professor Marek Czachor from the Gdansk Institute of Technology given during the hearing in Brussels. I apologize for the grammar - I wanted to keep it as close to the original as possible with minimal changes in a quick translation.

[justLOT787]

Today is the second anniversary of this Crash that killed Polish President and 95 other officials from Poland traveling to Katyn forest where thousands of Polish Offices got executed by Russians during WW2.

So for this we don't have the truth but it will come in the future, so far it has been lies, deceptions and cover ups both by the Russians and Polish (PO) government.

So my question is:

1) Where are the black boxes and why aren’t they in Polish hands and will they be in the near future?
2) Who won’t the Russians hand over the wrack of TU-154M and will they in the near future?
3) Why aren’t the families of the victims allowed to do the proper autopsies on loved ones? And if they try they get death threats? Why is that?

There has been a lot of lies since this accident.

1) Polish pilots were not skilled (name one pilot in government that is not skilled, if you are given the right to fly Air Force One I think you are the best of the best pilots out there.
2) This was the forth landing attempt. ( No there was only one)
3) Polish Pilots did not speak Russian ( To fly Polish Air Force one you have to speak Russian and English)
4) General was drunk (No he was not)
5) General scared pilots if they don’t land they are fired (General has no authority on that plane, and no right to do such a thing)

There are more cases out there but I’m too sad and angry to write. Personally to me this was an assassination by the current Polish Government and the Russian Government, and I won’t be surprised at all if French, German and US had also some thing to do with that. If Poland is such a great ally to US then why won’t US being the big brother help out, I bet US is the only one that knows the real truth besides Poland and Russia. Also I wont rule out a terrorist attack by Al Quaida but if they were behind it they would have come forward and probably celebrated it.

The newest report out there done by independent commission lead by Anthony Macierewicz and his people show that there have been two explosions on board Polish Air Force one. One was at the wing and one was in side the cabin? Well we will wait another year and see what happens and just maybe if we are lucky we will get the planes wrack and black boxes back. R.I.P and we will get to the bottom of this accident and the truth will come out.

[Gabriel]

1) Where are the black boxes and why aren’t they in Polish hands and will they be in the near future?
2) Who won’t the Russians hand over the wrack of TU-154M and will they in the near future?

Because there is an ongoing criminal investigation in Rusia, in which these things are evidence.

1) Polish pilots were not skilled (name one pilot in government that is not skilled, if you are given the right to fly Air Force One I think you are the best of the best pilots out there.

But these were NOT. And that is among the primary causes of the accident.

They didn't even met the requirements to just fly the TU in the positions each of them were occupying that day!!!

2) This was the forth landing attempt. (No there was only one)

Except in early news reports, no one said that. The official Russian and Polish investigation clearly found that it was the first attempt.

3) Polish Pilots did not speak Russian (To fly Polish Air Force one you have to speak Russian and English)

Same thing. The official investigations showed that they did.

4) General was drunk (No he was not)

I'll admit that I can't ensure that he was drunk if you admit that you can't ensure that he wasn't.

5) General scared pilots if they don’t land they are fired (General has no authority on that plane, and no right to do such a thing)

The President didn't have either, but he did just that in a previous flight (where, by the way, the pilot that was in command and refused to follow the President's illegal orders had to go through a painful process just for doing his job right)

[Evan]

But these were NOT. And that is among the primary causes of the accident.

FIXED.

[Northwester]

Those stupid pilots. Did not know how to deal with two minor explosions.

[Evan]

Those stupid pilots. Did not know how to deal with two minor explosions.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself but...

[Gabriel]

The newest report out there done by independent commission lead by Anthony Macierewicz and his people show that there have been two explosions on board Polish Air Force one. One was at the wing and one was in side the cabin

Those stupid pilots. Did not know how to deal with two minor explosions.

Sorry, maybe I missed it, but could you please post a link to the document where that commission concluded that there were two explosions that caused the crash? (note: the highlights are there for a reason)
I don't remember having seen it.

I do remember, on the other hand, documents presented by two "official" commissions showing (unless you believe that the Polish presented fake records) that the flight crew did not meet the requirements for captain, first officer, navigator and flight engineer, that the way that they were appointed as such was highly irregular, that they had no training in a 4-crew environment, that there was no updated flight manual of this plane.

I also remember that these commissions presented transcripts of the CVR showing (among other things) that the captain states "at 100 we'll go around on autopilot", a procedure that was not allowed in non-precision approaches in this plane. Again unless you object that CVR is fake, but then don't use the same fake CVR to support your side of the story.

- I present this knife as exhibit A. We'll show that this knife is the weapon used to kill Joe, and it has the fingerprints of the defendant.
- Objection, your honor. This knife is not the real knife found in the scene but one replaced at a later time and hence we reject it as an acceptable evidence. On the other hand, we will prove that the fingerprints in this knife are not my client's, hence someone else is the murderer and my client is innocent.

Yes, sure...

Now, I would not call these pilots "stupid". As usual, it's the management's fault: bad training, bad manuals, bad and/or lack of policies (sterile cockpit, stabilized approach...), irregularly appointing flight crews that don't meet the requirements...

So, please, of all things, don't come with BS like "name one pilot in government that is not skilled, if you are given the right to fly Air Force One I think you are the best of the best pilots out there".