Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[guamainiac]

Where did that show up? Eyewitness after an event are often not reliable. Could they have been just "pilot like" and in uniform. As a military flight there must have been, how many others in uniform aboard?

[Peter_K]

Calm down Evan.

Well, they didn't do so well with the CVR part of that, did they?

It was a political decision to release the preliminary, partial CVR transcript which was criticized both domestically and abroad.

So, if the Russians withhold information it is a lack of 'transparency', but if the Polish withhold information, it is conformity to the Chicago Convention?

What information did the Russians withhold? I think you are confusing something here once again.

[Northwester]

I will have to dig deeper to try to find the source, but I just remember on the day of the crash, or day after, someone reporting about it. Whoever that was, I think the possibility of an error is small (if the source is realiable, of course) - when you see someone strapped to a seat in front of an instrument panel.

[Peter_K]

On the other hand, there was some report of an eye witness stating that he saw pilots strapped in their seats in a broken cockpit right after the crash.

That was just another internet conspiracy theory, even a picture was circulated but it was proven very early that the pictures of the said pilots came from a different accident. Keep in mind that the cockpit crew was among the last to be identified with DNA tests.

[Gabriel]

I will have to dig deeper to try to find the source, but I just remember on the day of the crash, or day after, someone reporting about it. Whoever that was, I think the possibility of an error is small (if the source is realiable, of course) - when you see someone strapped to a seat in front of an instrument panel.

Northwester,

When a plane rolls inverted and crashes nose first at 300 km/h, and considering that the cockpit is in the very front on the plane and in the upper half of the fuselage, and that the cockpit will be almost the fist thing to impact and not happy with that, the rest of the plane will crash into it, I doubt very much that you will end up finding the pilot strapped to a seat in front of an instrument panel or that zone of the fuselage in a relatively good shape as apparently shown in the other photo.

[Evan]

Calm down Evan.

If I calm down any more I won't have a pulse.

What information did the Russians withhold? I think you are confusing something here once again.

I never said the Russians withheld anything. I'm just trying to point out that this so-called lack of transparency I keep hearing about from conspiracy theorists is coming from both sides of the investigation.

[Northwester]

Northwester,

When a plane rolls inverted and crashes nose first at 300 km/h, and considering that the cockpit is in the very front on the plane and in the upper half of the fuselage, and that the cockpit will be almost the fist thing to impact and not happy with that, the rest of the plane will crash into it, I doubt very much that you will end up finding the pilot strapped to a seat in front of an instrument panel or that zone of the fuselage in a relatively good shape as apparently shown in the other photo.

I do not dispute that. But we don't know what hit the ground first. Some people say the wing - we don't know in what point of the axial rotation the body was exactly when it hit the ground.

[Northwester]

...lack of transparency ... is coming from both sides of the investigation.

Can you be more specific about lack of transparency from the Polish side?

[Evan]

Can you be more specific about lack of transparency from the Polish side?

Neither the Russians nor the Polish have let us know what happened. Both must have seen the FDR information. Both must know what happened.

[Peter_K]

I never said the Russians withheld anything. I'm just trying to point out that this so-called lack of transparency I keep hearing about from conspiracy theorists is coming from both sides of the investigation.

The so called lack of transparency refers only to some data that the Polish side (state of aircraft registry) expected and is entitled to, not that it should be made available to the general public.

[Gabriel]

I do not dispute that. But we don't know what hit the ground first. Some people say the wing - we don't know in what point of the axial rotation the body was exactly when it hit the ground.

Oh, come on.

Maybe a wingtip hit first. But the best evidence we have so far (the trees damage, ground marks and debris pattern) strongly suggest that the plane hit the ground inverted and in a nose down attitude. I don't think that, in that condition, whether the wingtip or the windshield hit 0,01 seconds before the other will make a difference in the outcome regarding what I've said in the previous post (that there will not be a pilot strapped in front of an instrument panel and there will not be a largely intact cockpit section of the fuselage), right?

I'm trying to be constructive with whatever little information we have, and we are all playing parlour talk and dumb guesses with that.

With what we know, I judge incredibly much higher the chance that the cockpit was destroyed in the accident than that the pilot was found strapped in front of the panel and the photo shows an almost intact cockpit section and that all these facts were hidden by a conspiracy by the corrupt Ruskis to hide their true guilt in this intentional magnicide.

Ok, we don't know for sure 100% that it was inverted and nose low.
Next, close the thread. (Or are you 100% sure of something as to go on with it?)

Please let's (all of we) steer back the thread into the parlour talk and dumb guessing with what we have and with what becomes available as it does.

[Northwester]

Please let's (all of we) steer back the thread into the parlour talk and dumb guessing with what we have and with what becomes available as it does.

Ok, fair enough.

[Northwester]

Neither the Russians nor the Polish have let us know what happened. Both must have seen the FDR information. Both must know what happened.

No one is going to release the FDR information till the final report is published. What I am talking about is access to the official investigation for Polish investigators, and the flow of information from Russian side to Polish side.

[Curtis Malone]

Please let's (all of we) steer back the thread into the parlour talk and dumb guessing with what we have and with what becomes available as it does.

Little late to be suggesting restraint on page 36, don't you think?

[Peter_K]

Tomorrow, at high noon Moscow time the MAK report will be made available to the public.