Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Joe H]

No, I just meant it quite simply, my great grandfather was a "conscript" in the army of Franz Joseph. My grandfather said, I came here because "we were so poor we could not afford salt."

He meant it too. Heck of a guy and worked hard till 100 finally relaxing the last two years.

That I CAN understand Sir !
My family history is Irish Famine, moved to England, many moved to USA. My grandfather lost his leg in the ww1, his brother died, WW2, Uncle dies in a Sub in the navy atlantic anti uboat patrol, along with 3 relatives, ALSO, 5 my of family killed by German bombing of uk cites. Dad lost all his family in the Blitz and was sent to a 'Bernardos home' to basically fend for himself !.. I have familly now in UK Military in Afghanistan...

I DO know what it is like...
Many do not realise that the Flu Epidemic post WW1 killed more people than WW1 and led eventually to the wall street collapse etc.. but you are of an age that you DO KNOW YOUR HISTORY...

It is so shrouded in John Wayne Hollywood Hero type events, and not reality. I feel for you Sir, we all have our backgrounds. I jut think it is all political infighting, moneymaking crap. but !!!!!!.. I have seen it, not personally I will admit, but my family has been torn apart by 'wars' that we (brits) DID NOT START (ALTHOUGH IF YOU GO BACK FAR ENOUGH WE CAN HAVE ENOUGH BLAME ON US TO FILL MANY BOOKS)!

I have just had enough, I no longer want to fill Wall street or London bankers pockets on the back of OUR family for their greed or political idealism.. I have suffered - or to be honest, our family has suffered enough to be be then cast aside with no comeback apart from a demob suit and leather case. and an FU attitude...
Joe

[guamainiac]

Young Tommy Atkins?

[Joe H]

Young Tommy Atkins?

Actually no, it was Patrick Hanly, the first one maimed, then Peter Mitchell, who was lost in subs...

I dont think any were called Atkins, or even Rosenburg ?

The yanks were always the late entry lol but of course were the saviours.....

But they have no right to proclaim their 'sacrifice' above others who gave their life for what was supposed freedom at the time...
I suppose then every german is called Fritz ?

Would you like a list of the others killed by indirect german bombing ? I can provide a full 'inventory' if you like ? including all my Dad's family.

[guamainiac]

It will bring a tear to you eye.

Google in Rudyard Kippling ... "Tommy"

[Northwester]

Thanks.

Not the best quality, but you will hear it.

http://youtu.be/EhJJJZ81Juo

[Northwester]

There are 2 sections of the recording that do not sound right and do not look right in the soundwave form. The first one where a new sound of different characteristics covers up/replaces the original sound, and the second one where there is an interruption of the sequence (sound and form) and a part of a word is cut off.

http://youtu.be/aaRIIrVuAq8

[Joe H]

It will bring a tear to you eye.

Google in Rudyard Kippling ... "Tommy"

Yes, I cannot add more than that the actual TOMMY was from the Thompson Machine gun.. from Al Capone and the later M1 (I think ???)))

Nice one, I am glad you didnt take anything I said the wrong way...

and of course, Kipling was a Brit haha....

Two Pints of Guinness !!! , and a small Bushmills.... lol

[Northwester]

It will bring a tear to you eye.

Google in Rudyard Kippling ... "Tommy"

There were 4 Tommies in the cockpit...

[Myndee]

I am now only on page 50 of 66. (forever trying to catch up.) I have to give my point of view as a Czech/Lithuanian heritage American. As unfortunate as it was to lose these good people, I just don't see that there was any conspiracy here. It seems very probable that the general was issuing orders to the pilot, who had to make the choice to obey, or lose his job when the wheels touched down. He attempted that landing several times and was ready to do it again if he had to. This is yet another case of get-home-itis, with a military twist. I'm not saying it was right for the pilots to be bullied, but it appears that ATC did give them all of the info that was required. I just don't see any probable evidence of an assassination. The captain has authority over the plane and he didn't have to land it there if he didn't want to. Just my opinion.

[Northwester]

It seems very probable that the general was issuing orders to the pilot, who had to make the choice to obey, or lose his job when the wheels touched down. He attempted that landing several times and was ready to do it again if he had to. This is yet another case of get-home-itis, with a military twist.

Please do not write nonsense like this. No one was giving orders to the pilot, and no one was going to lose his job. From the cockpit conversation there is no evidence of any pressure on the pilots. Normal relaxed conversation. There was an expectation to perform, like in any important mission. Nothing beyond that. That's why they descended to MDA, to show that they tried.

I'm not saying it was right for the pilots to be bullied, but it appears that ATC did give them all of the info that was required.

They were getting wrong info from the ATC all along the final approach. Read the CVR transcript and compare with the position of the plane.

[Evan]

Please do not write nonsense like this. No one was giving orders to the pilot, and no one was going to lose his job. From the cockpit conversation there is no evidence of any pressure on the pilots. Normal relaxed conversation. There was an expectation to perform, like in any important mission. Nothing beyond that. That's why they descended to MDA, to show that they tried.

Normal, relaxed cockpit conversation between four or five people, some of them drunk, on initial approach. Friendly things, like "it doesn't look good for landing" and "well, then we have a problem". Just the kind of things that make flying safe and professional.

[Gabriel]

I am now only on page 50 of 66. (forever trying to catch up.) I have to give my point of view as a Czech/Lithuanian heritage American. As unfortunate as it was to lose these good people, I just don't see that there was any conspiracy here. It seems very probable that the general was issuing orders to the pilot, who had to make the choice to obey, or lose his job when the wheels touched down.

Not directly. Nobody said "go and land anyway". The pilot didn't refuse to land to begin with, so there was no reason to order to do it.

However, I think the pressure was there even before the flight, and during the flight with phrases from the General like "then we have a problem" or "he has not decided what to do if we cannot land". Hell, I think that the mere presence of the General in the cockpit is unacceptable (let alone drunk or putting pressure on the pilots), especially during such a critical phase of flight like a non-precision approach in zero visibility. So the pilot decided to at least attempt the approach even when he knew that the chances of completing it were null. That's not right, ok that shouldn't have led to an accident, but the approach should have never been attempted to begin with. In favour of the pilot I'll say that he seemed convinced that the approach would not be successful and was committed to go around at the minimums. Then something failed.

He attempted that landing several times and was ready to do it again if he had to.

Not correct. It was the first attempt, and as I've said the pilot looked committed to try it just once and go to an alternate if (when) the approach was not successful.

[guamainiac]

The initial press reports did say there were several prior attempts to land.

They were all incorrect.

[Northwester]

Normal, relaxed cockpit conversation between four or five people, some of them drunk, on initial approach. Friendly things, like "it doesn't look good for landing" and "well, then we have a problem". Just the kind of things that make flying safe and professional.

Where did you get the "some of them drunk" from? Are you suggesting the crew was drunk? The report was written by the same people that took care of the crash site. Very credible:

http://youtu.be/YiYKL8ZwHz8

[Northwester]

I reread the CVR transcript and there is not a single indication that the general was in the cockpit. There is only one mention of a voice in the background (not inside the cockpit) attributed to the general where he was explaining something to a third person. NOT A SINGLE CASE where the general was directing the crew or even talking to the crew.