Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Evan]

I think Polish investigators represent a very high professional standard. I am sure they are aware of all the issues (and more) I mentioned here. Politicians - that's a different story. One of the politicians (not identified) in an unofficial statement said something like that: we know, they (the Russians) know that we know, we know that the Russians know that we know, the Russians know that we know that the Russians know that we know. This could be almost funny if it did not refer to this horrible crash.

The former Lithuanian president Vytautas Landsbergis said explaining why a question about purposeful action to bring that plane down cannot be asked: "No one will ask such a question. First of all because no one will want to risk damaging good relations with Russia. Moreover, if that turned out to be true, the next question would be really horrific - what to do now? - There is no answer. Break off diplomatic relations? Everyone is afraid, so no one will ask such a question."

Ok, but how are the independent Polish investigators responding to the items you have listed?

[Northwester]

Ok, but how are the independent Polish investigators responding to the items you have listed?

I guess I will have to send them my list and ask for comments? JK

The official Polish report will come out soon. We'll have to wait and see how far they are allowed to go.

[Taliesin]

The official Polish report will come out soon. We'll have to wait and see how far they are allowed to go.

Amazing back door you created for yourself there. If the official polish report confirms that there was no foul play on the part of the russians, you can simply say they refused to say so for diplomatic or political reasons!
Brilliant!

[Northwester]

Amazing back door you created for yourself there. If the official polish report confirms that there was no foul play on the part of the russians, you can simply say they refused to say so for diplomatic or political reasons!
Brilliant!

Just to force you to say something of substance, which of these points do you find unfound and why?
- TAWS doing things that are not physically possible
- Middle marker generating signal that is not physically possible
- Two different versions of CVR in existence
- Plane trajectory not matching FDR data
- Visual records from ATC disappeared
- PIC's flight parameter not matching that from FDR
- Indications of tampering with the CVR recording

[Northwester]

My first thoughts exactly. Northwester did the very same thing prior to the Russian report being released, serving notice that the findings would not be valid. This is how hatred and mistrust are perpetuated, and why this thread will see no end as long as Northwester continues to post and others continue to respond.

It would be nice if you could say something of substance too. BTW I love and trust Russians, just don't trust this investigation process.

[Evan]

Just to force you to say something of substance, which of these points do you find unfound and why?
- TAWS doing things that are not physically possible
- Middle marker generating signal that is not physically possible
- Two different versions of CVR in existence
- Plane trajectory not matching FDR data
- Visual records from ATC disappeared
- PIC's flight parameter not matching that from FDR
- Indications of tampering with the CVR recording

These are all pretty hard to overlook. I'm certain the Polish investigators will call them to our attention as well. Unless... unless this is a grand conspiracy on the part of the Polish as well. Yes, of course, but then... why do you create such a grand conspiracy but then leave all of these obvious inconsistencies and telltale signs of tampering and not expect anyone to notice them? It's almost as if they want to get caught...

[Taliesin]

Just to force you to say something of substance, which of these points do you find unfound and why?
- TAWS doing things that are not physically possible

Isnt the TAWS part of the airplane? If the TAWS produces abnormal readings, whose fault is that?

- Middle marker generating signal that is not physically possible

The middle marker is a VHF radio beacon, either you catch it or you dont. Are you saying the crew didnt catch the middle marker but continued the approach anyway? Did the russians invent some kind of Death Ray Middle Marker that made the plane crash? Yea, didnt think so.

- Two different versions of CVR in existence

Says you. Then you post pictures of audio waves and claim there is some kind of difference, but you're the only one who sees it.

Just to force you to say something of substance

Here's something of substance: The plane crashed into terrain that was lower than the runway threshold. It was a CLASSIC controlled flight into terrain. The crew was pressured into an approach they shouldnt have executed in the first place. They were warned about the weather conditions and went in there anyway.
Even IF the russians had wanted that plane down, they still could have sat there twiddling their thumbs.

There is no conspiracy here, just tragedy

[Northwester]

Isnt the TAWS part of the airplane? If the TAWS produces abnormal readings, whose fault is that?
The middle marker is a VHF radio beacon, either you catch it or you dont. Are you saying the crew didnt catch the middle marker but continued the approach anyway? Did the russians invent some kind of Death Ray Middle Marker that made the plane crash? Yea, didnt think so.
Says you. Then you post pictures of audio waves and claim there is some kind of difference, but you're the only one who sees it.

Here's something of substance: The plane crashed into terrain that was lower than the runway threshold. It was a CLASSIC controlled flight into terrain. The crew was pressured into an approach they shouldnt have executed in the first place. They were warned about the weather conditions and went in there anyway.
Even IF the russians had wanted that plane down, they still could have sat there twiddling their thumbs.

There is no conspiracy here, just tragedy

It is hard to have a meaningful discussion with you because you did not bother to read what those inconsistencies are really about. What you wrote about TAWS and Middle Marker shows that you don't have a clue about the significance of the problems.

[guamainiac]

Was there any other traffic behind them or holding?

[Northwester]

These are all pretty hard to overlook. I'm certain the Polish investigators will call them to our attention as well. Unless... unless this is a grand conspiracy on the part of the Polish as well. Yes, of course, but then... why do you create such a grand conspiracy but then leave all of these obvious inconsistencies and telltale signs of tampering and not expect anyone to notice them? It's almost as if they want to get caught...

This is all very speculative, but there is plenty of people that think that there is a political group in Poland that was very happy about and possible involved in what happened. I don't want to go much in there, because that takes us into totally different territory, but when you have different groups involved in something like this and something goes wrong one group might try to play some other group in order to put pressure on someone and some information might find its way into the public realm. But that's a totally different subject.

But honestly, how much of what we are discussing here finds its way to the outside of narrow circles of people with some special stake or interest? Probably not much if any. Most people get the news from the mainstream media that repeats the official version of the events. How many people would make an effort and have tools to discover the inconsistencies? Very few.

[Northwester]

Was there any other traffic behind them or holding?

As far as I know no traffic whatsoever. Polish Yak-40 before with journalists. Russian IL-76 after Yak, with an unknown mission. That's it.

[Gabriel]

This is why this thread will see no end as long as Northwester continues to post and others continue to respond.

I've already stopped. If only the rest of you followed me...

[guamainiac]

That would be a very interesting interview wouldn't it.

How much sooner did the IL-76 land and could there possibly have been someone who was waved off?

[Northwester]

That would be a very interesting interview wouldn't it.

How much sooner did the IL-76 land and could there possibly have been someone who was waved off?

The IL-76 never landed. Made two approaches. During the first one came out to the left of the RWY, made a quick turn almost touching the ground with a wing tip, then tried again even more off. Did not try the third time.

[Gabriel]

How much sooner did the IL-76 land

It didn't. It didn't even attempt the approach.
It diverted when they learnt about the weather conditions. The Polish crew knew this.