Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[justLOT787]

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down is a mistake made by ACT. The controller gave out the wrong height of the ground in very bad weather. Instead of the ground height from sea level he gave the ground to ground altitude. So what ever the information was give the pilot made the adjustments in the cockpit. So ether this was deliberate or by mistake he will never find out. Pilot only made one landing attempt that was fatal. fficeffice" />>>

[SYDCBRWOD]

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down is a mistake made by ACT. The controller gave out the wrong height of the ground in very bad weather. Instead of the ground height from sea level he gave the ground to ground altitude. So what ever the information was give the pilot made the adjustments in the cockpit. So ether this was deliberate or by mistake he will never find out. Pilot only made one landing attempt that was fatal. fficeffice" />>>

mmmmit was all the russians fault eh?

[Evan]

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down is a mistake made by ACT. The controller gave out the wrong height of the ground in very bad weather. Instead of the ground height from sea level he gave the ground to ground altitude. So what ever the information was give the pilot made the adjustments in the cockpit. So ether this was deliberate or by mistake he will never find out. Pilot only made one landing attempt that was fatal. fficeffice" />>>

Even if true, the radio altitude would have been enough to warn them of the danger. It they weren't watching the R/A and cross-checking altitude... pilot error.

[Geebee]

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down is a mistake made by ACT. The controller gave out the wrong height of the ground in very bad weather. Instead of the ground height from sea level he gave the ground to ground altitude. So what ever the information was give the pilot made the adjustments in the cockpit. So ether this was deliberate or by mistake he will never find out. Pilot only made one landing attempt that was fatal. fficeffice" />>>

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do find the above statement somewhat flawed. If the pilot interpreted the altitude read by ATC as sea level altitude (which was per definition a higher number) they actually would have overshot the runway as they were perceiving to be lower than they actually were. I.e. 500 ft communicated by ATC would have been interpreted by the pilot as altitude from sea level whereas it was altitude above the ground. So in fact they were higher.
Either you meant it the other way around or are just looking for another reason for a conspiracy theory. I hope it is the former.

I concur with Evan's comment that Radio-alt cross-check anyhow should have occurred.

[justLOT787]

In situation/weather like they had zero visibility isn’t it Air Traffic Controllers job to guide the plane in for a safe landing by talking to the pilot and gathering his information about speed height gage readings est. and making the right arrangements/calculations and report them back to the pilot? I’m not making any conspiracies but my mind is open to every thing and until we get the true report out then every one will be talking about different situations and causes of the horrible accident. They way it looks to me, is that either the controller or the pilot did not pay attention to what is going on around them. And this wasn’t the first time this pilot and crew was there either.

[Geebee]

Sorry to hurt your feelings but I believe to see some contradiction between your statement to be

open to every thing

vis-a-vis your claim to know

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down

.

I'm still waiting to better understand your interpretation of altitude readings


Back to the serious stuff now. On wp.pl one can find an interesting graphical reproduction of the last seconds of the flight from a top-down perspective. Sorry but the article is in Polish but I would strongly recommend those of you interested to take a look at it (and use translate.google.com or another tool to support you). http://tinyurl.com/y4a7jgm
They were aligned with the runway but too low (nothing new here) and appear to have hit several trees as far as 1050 m prior to the runway. Interestingly enough, no word on the NDB antenna here. Does that mean they did not hit one?

[starchyme]

I thought you guys may have some fun with this one. I am not for or against it...just thought it was an interesting twist to the tale. I do not have time to validate all the claims... but maybe some of you can spare the time. Happy debating:

-- Begin Qoute:
According to media, authorities are handling the deaths of top Polish political, military and economic leaders in a plane crash in the western Russian city of Smolensk on Saturday as an accident.
But a day after the crash, many unanswered questions surround the event.
Polskaweb has said that an assassination cannot be ruled out.
There are many reasons to dismiss the official story of how Poland’s president, all of Poland's top army chiefs, the central bank governor and secret service chief died as a cover-up of massive proportions.
According to the mainstream media, the Polish delegation was flying from Warsaw to Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre of thousands of Poles by Soviet secret service during the second world war.
But the official ceremony marking the Katyn anniversary was held earlier in the week on Wednesday and attended by Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Russian head of state Vladimir Putin.
The Polish President Lech Kaczynski was not invited.
How come Presidnt Kaczynski and half of Poland’s government flew to Katyn three days after the official anniversary?
Why did100 figures who are vital for the day-to-day functioning of the Polish government go to a relatively insignificant ceremony, and not to the main one?
What reason could there be for the Polish central bank governor to fly to Katyn to attend the ceremony?
Why did the 100 top Polish leaders all fly on the same plane?
How could security protocols that require that even a president and his deputy fly separately be so relaxed that so many key people needed to run the Polish government from day to day are allowed to fly on the same plane?
And in a Russian Tupolev plane, and to the traditional arch-enemy of Poland, Russia?
This massacre of the Polish elite occurred on the way to commemorate the murder of 4000 Polish officers and intellecturals massacred by the Soviets in 1940.
But what is the probability of a second massacre of the entire Polish leadership occurring in the same place 70 years later?
Why were none of the journalists that accompany the president on the plane as usual?
According to Polish media, journalists were told that they had been assigned to another plane that had had technical problems and they would, therefore, need to switch to a third plane, delaying their arrival in Katyn.
The delay of the journalists in arriving at the scene of the crash allowed a better manipulation of the media coverage.
According to Bild am Sonntag and the Berliner Zeitung, a hotel close to the crash site was sealed off, possible to ensure that journalists who might have seen the crash could not send photos or reports.
A man who took pictures of the crash site using his mobile phone had to erase the photos at a police check point on his way home.
Polish and Russian officials said no-one survived the crash. All the bodies have been found, they allege - and yet at the same time, authorities say DNA tests will have to be carried out on the bones of many to identify them.
Have all the bodies been found? Or not?
Were there any bodies? How many?
What evidence is there that these people were on the plane to Smolensk at all apart from the passenger list issued by the authorities?
It is conceivable that the 100 top Polish leaders were rounded up in a purge and killed or kidnapped inside Poland and that the airplane accident in Russia was staged to explain their deaths.
A map of the air port north of Smolensk can be seen here:

http://maps.google.de/maps?%20hl=de&gl=de&ie=UTF8&ll=54.835896,32.063942&spn=0.110529,0.363579&t=h&z=12%20

Weather reports indicate clouds but little fog.
According to the official version, however, the plane hit trees as it approached Smolensk airport in thick fog, and caught fire.
The plane made four landing attempts because of the fog, according to the mainstream media.
But another witness reported hearing an explosion.
The damage of the plane shown is consistent with an explosion.
Debris was scattered around an area one kilometer.
Pilot error was a possible reason for the crash, according to the official story.
But the pilots chosen to fly heads of state are highly qualified.
Why was the plane flying so low that it hit a tree? Weren’t the instruments measuring altitude on board working?
What was the co pilot doing?
Where was the military escort? The security service detail?
Russian media reports said the pilots ignored advice from air traffic control to divert to another airport.


"The pilot was advised to land in Minsk, but decided to land in Smolensk," said the spokesman, Andrei Yevseyenkov.

But pilots have to follow a standardised procedure for landing and must divert if there is visibility is too poor.
Other reports say Kaczynski himself intervened to force the pilot to land. How likely is it that the pilot would listen to the president and not follow standard procedures?
How likely that the entire army leadership would allow Kaczynski to force the pilot to land. The head of the Polish air force was also on board according to the official story.
Smolensk airport is a military airport classified as a “ClassOne Aiport” that can handle all types of planes, though there are conflicting reports about whether it had an ILS system.
The media says the Tu-154 also has a questionable safety record, and the presidential plane was at least 20 years old.
But other sources say the plane had just undergone a service. A thorough check is routine before a flight.
Planes as the safest means of travel in the world. Hardly any head of state has killed in a plane crash in the past 30 to 40 years. Now half the Polish government has died.
How likely is it that this was an accident?
Who gains from the death of so many leading Polish figures?
The main winner is Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk who has wiped out the entire opposition to his pro-euro, pro-IMF, pro-New World Order policies, even though they appear to be some allies sacrificed on the plane, including the pro swine flu vaccine ombudsman.
Nevertheless, the backbone of Polish opposition to the NWO appears to have been killed.
“Among the victims were key members of Poland’s biggest opposition party, Law and Justice, including current and former heads of the party’s parliamentary caucus, Grazyna Gesicka and Przemyslaw Gosiewski as well as the party’s main economic expert Aleksandra Natalli-Swiat, and deputy parliamentary speaker Krzysztof Putra.
The list also includes deputy parliamentary speaker Jerzy Szmajdzinski, who was the presidential candidate of the opposition Left Democratic Alliance. That means the crash killed the presidential candidates of two of Poland’s three largest parties. Kaczynski had already won the endorsement of the opposition Law and Justice party. He was to officially declare his candidacy in May,” reports Bloomberg.
With President Kaczynski out of the way and the two presidential candidates, the next president can appoint the top army leaders and the central bank governor as well as judges - in short replace the entire Polish government with people friendly to the New World Order and Bilderberg agenda.
Tusk's presidential candidate Komorowski has just said he would set the date of a presidential election which had been due in October forward to June, giving Tusk's party an added advantage.
Tusk appears to be just a puppet for the NWO, operating across countries, and including Putin, who is supposed to be leading the probe in the crash in Russia.
The bodies of the victims have been taken to Moscow.
There is evidence that many government officials work for the private interests of an international corporate crime syndicate, gearing up for the total destruction of nation states and the US dollar and euro to establish a one world government under the UN flagship.
Poland’s top leaders have defied the NWO by refusing the swine flu vaccination and postponing joining the euro, a “must”, according to IMF head Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
They have paid a heavy price.
True, Tusk appeared to support his health minister when she refused to buy the swine flu vaccine last autumn. But even the Austrian Health Minister criticized WHO for declaring a pandemic prematurely – but only after he saw how big the opposition to the vaccines in Austria already was.
Acting skills are vital for leadership, Adolf Hitler said.
By purging Poland of its top leadership and opposition, the NWO has sent out a signal, a clear warning to other government figures not to resist its agenda.
It is less likely that the Polish Health Minister will dare refuse vaccine the next time WHO declares a pandemic after this incident.
It is less likely that Greece’s central bankers and opposition parties will push for Greece to leave the eurozone or operate a domestic currency in parallel with the euro.
That, anyway, is the calculation of the New World Order.
The murder of the Polish leaders signals the start of a new era of terror and could be the start of a whole series of purges of government officials opposing their agenda."
--End Qoute

[EconomyClass]

Did some demonic force seize control of their brains so they couldn't help but all get on one plane? Maybe, but I wouldnt bet that way.

Were they offered Koolaid as the complimentary beverage?

[Geebee]

With all due respect "starchyme", but maybe you should stick to reading Dan Brown novels or indeed stick to the facts:

• visibility was very low
• although a couple of vice-ministers were on board (of the ruling majority by the way, sic), not a single government individual was killed and the country remained perfectly manageable
• the plane with the press landed an hour prior to the arrival with a Yak-40. At least one Polish journalist was an eye-witness of the accident
• the fact the president decided to visit Katyn anyhow was a last minute decision (he was scheduled to attend the Barcelona-Real Madrid game instead....) and clearly a political move in anticipation of the upcoming elections
• the article above is a clear reflection of the 'old generation' and definitely in line with what the ultra-conservative PiS party would like you to believe
• but times have changed and I believe it is only in the interest of the country to have a dynamic new generation of politicians with clear vision
• the whole situation reflects the dichotomy within the Polish society. Cherry on the cake was the unnecessary discussion and decision to bury the presidential couple in Wawel castle. People familiar with Poland's history will perfectly understand.

PS. I believe there are still crocodiles in the NYC sewer system, Gladio is overhearing your phonecalls and your neighbour might be a Red Army infiltrant

[Gabriel]

In situation/weather like they had zero visibility isn’t it Air Traffic Controllers job to guide the plane in for a safe landing by talking to the pilot and gathering his information about speed height gage readings est. and making the right arrangements/calculations and report them back to the pilot?

Nope. They allegedly were on a non-precision instrument approach.

In such an approach the pilot uses his own instruments to fly and the plane and navigate, has a minimum descent altitude, and has to go around if he doesn't see the runway. Such approaches are also available at airports where there is no radar coverage, and hence where the ATC would not know where the plane is, let alone guide them.

[Gabriel]

The real reason that Polish Presidents plane went down is a mistake made by ACT. The controller gave out the wrong height of the ground in very bad weather. Instead of the ground height from sea level he gave the ground to ground altitude. So what ever the information was give the pilot made the adjustments in the cockpit. So ether this was deliberate or by mistake he will never find out. Pilot only made one landing attempt that was fatal. fficeffice" />>>

What "could" have happened is as follows:

The ATC informs the pilots the QNH (the altimeter setting for it to display the altitude above the sea level).

The pilots adjust the altimeter with that setting but mistakenly thinking it's the QFE (the altimeter setting for it to display the altitude above the sea level).

So when the altimeter reads for example 600ft that would be 600 ft above the sea level, but the pilots would think it's 600 ft above the runway. If the runway is at 550ft above the sea level, they would be flying at just 50ft above the runway elevation while thinking they are safely flying 600 ft above it.

Unlikely. More likely is to make a "dyslexic" mistake with the numbers when giving the information or when writing it down (for example saying or understanding 29.39 instead of 29.93).

In any event, what happened with the radio-altimeter that always gives the distance between the airplane and the ground below it?

[Geebee]

Unlikely. More likely is to make a "dyslexic" mistake with the numbers when giving the information or when writing it down (for example saying or understanding 29.39 instead of 29.93).

In any event, what happened with the radio-altimeter that always gives the distance between the airplane and the ground below it?

Gabriel, in case of a dyslexic mistake, isn't the 'read back' by the crew meant to check this? If I recall well, there were early reports that the read back never occurred.

[Gabriel]

Gabriel, in case of a dyslexic mistake, isn't the 'read back' by the crew meant to check this?

I guess so. However that's not bulletproof either.

If ATC gives the wrong number and the crew read it back as given it's possible that ATC will not notice his own mistake. It's also possible that the ATC gives the right number, the crew reads it back Ok, and then make the mistake when setting the altimeters.

Anyway, all those are just possibilities. And my "feel" is that it was in fact a pilot intentionally busting minimums.

[Evan]

What "could" have happened is as follows:

The ATC informs the pilots the QNH (the altimeter setting for it to display the altitude above the sea level).

The pilots adjust the altimeter with that setting but mistakenly thinking it's the QFE (the altimeter setting for it to display the altitude above the sea level).

uh, speaking of dyslexic...

QFE is the altimeter setting to display altitude above field elevation (I'm sure you just typed that in wrong).

I've been told that RadAlts are notoriously erratic, and exist mostly for automation, and the terrain may have been quite uneven there, so maybe they based their glide slope on the QNE information and disregarded the Radalt readings. Also, I think the Radalts were recent upgrades on this plane, so they probably weren't accustomed to relying on them.

[Evan]

According to Google Earth, the airfield threshold is about 835ft elevation, but the point where the first impact occurred is about 100 ft lower elevation, which means they were below the airfield elevation when they impacted the trees. The final approach to the runway involves overflying a ravine that drops to about 680ft elevation. So Radalt information would be fairly useless if the field elevation were not calibrated correctly.

But if they did have it right, why were they flying below it?

I also noticed the local weather indicated 1°C and 98% humidity at the time of the crash. I wonder if icing could have been a factor. Did they give up altitude to avoid a stall?