Damn, forgot to phone Mavis

[MCM]

Ryan,

With all due respect, you might want to re-read Theoddkiwi's post.

He is SUPPORTING Jingo.

YOU are in fact the one who was really quite abusive in your first post! You're attacking someone on the board who was in fact defending a poster who is new!

If you care to actually bother to read what Theo said, you'll find that he was having a go at Bob for having a go at Jingo! He's doing exactly what you are trying to do, although he did it far more lucidly than the unwarranted personal attack you launched on him in your first post.

Stones and Glass Houses come to mind, as does practice what you preach.

Again... it is perfectly clear that Theo was DEFENDING Jingo. Can you see that?

[Evan]

I carefully checked they were not supporting one another's misperceptions, as humans so commonly do.They both agreed that the plane did go up after going down. This re-ascent happened still some way from the runway, they were not low, just lower...I suppose they could have mistaken levelling off for going up, its just they were really insistent that they could 'feel the back of the seat'.

The only thing the human body can feel in terms of climb is vertical acceleration: the increase in g-force, and that increase in g-force is identical to what is felt in vertical deceleration in descent (which is actually vertical acceleration). The other perception is visual, the angle of the horizon, but when the plane slows to low approach speeds and extends wing flaps, the angle of attack generally requires a nose up attitude, sometimes a significantly noticeable one. The plane can be level or descending even when pointed toward a climb. The aural indication of climb is increased noise from the engines, but this will also happen when leveling off from descent, where the rate of descent is controlled by thrust (airspeed). Visually at that point, unless you are talking about many thousands of feet where you can use ground perspective, you need instruments to determine if the aircraft is climbing.

So what I suspect happened is that the plane leveled off somewhat abruptly from a significant (but barely perceptible) rate of descent, which can feel very much like a sudden climb, particularly if in a nose up attitude with the engine thrust coming up.

[Peter Kesternich]

(...) Just another of those puzzling and never-to-be explained events so common in aviation, art and gardening. (...)

Actually, almost all events in aviation can be explained as long as there is sufficient data available to analyze them. The problem is that art an gardening don't scare as many people as aviation does, especially when their knowledge of what goes on in aviation is sketchy at best. Things are certainly not helped by putting second- and third-hand information out there. I think it would help the quality of the discussion on this forum a lot, if people stopped speculating and started asking intelligent questions (the ones where you can not answer "yes" or "no" ).

[Gabriel]

The only thing the human body can feel in terms of climb is vertical acceleration

That's one thing but not the only thing. You can also "feel" deck angle. When the plane is pointing up you can feel your back against the seat-back.

However, both cues (vertical acceleration and deck angle) can be misleading because other things are perceived in the same way by our bodies.

In the case of the vertical acceleration, as you've said a reduction in descent rate is felt the same as an increase in climb rate.

In the case of deck angle (or pitch), first the plane can be pointing up and going down, and second a longitudinal acceleration also pushes you against the seat-back in the same way.

In an approach, after a steady descent (constant speed and constant vertical speed) a level-off plus the addition of thrust to prevent loosing airspeed would feel very very much like a climb, and without reference to the instruments or to the landscape it's really impossible to tell.

In general, it's impossible to tell if you are climbing or descending, pointing up, level or down, with a right or left or no bank, based on the "feelings" alone. You do need reference to an external view or be trained in instrument flight and use them in lieu of the external view. That's why there are so many accidents where pilots loose control in poor visibility conditions. And that's called spatial disorientation. If pilots are susceptible to that, imagine passengers.

[Jingogunner]

nose-up mistaken for climb

So what I suspect happened is that the plane leveled off somewhat abruptly from a significant (but barely perceptible) rate of descent, which can feel very much like a sudden climb, particularly if in a nose up attitude with the engine thrust coming up.

I think I like your version best, Mr Evan, it has the flavour of something true and authentic. He saw they were in a nose up, or felt it, and mistook the sensation of levelling-off g for a climb. Will offer this and see if he will accept it as possible.

[MCM]

Its very common Jingo.

Remember even on final approach the aircraft is flying at (roughly) 2 degrees nose up. If the pilot wants to slow down his rate of descent, he may pitch up further. That small pitch up to say 3 degrees is enough to make it feel like you are climbing, even though you are actually still descending, just not as quickly as you were before. If it happened earlier on, the pitch up is likely to be larger, and will produce the same effects.

Note this is made somewhat more noticable if your son was not able to see a clear horizon. Was he in a window seat during the day?

Illusions are actually very common in flying when visibility is not good, and can be even disconcerting when they are good. That is what much of the instrument training syllabus covers.

[bob12312357]

Many thanks for your friendly knowledgeable reply, Mr MCM. I carefully grilled the man, using every technique to recover memory and sharpen recall that I have not myself forgotten. I must say it was his first flight ever, but I'm pretty sure it was quite a firm landing. His partner, a veteran passenger since childhood, also agreed that it was firm. They said hard but they meant fiirm. I carefully checked they were not supporting one another's misperceptions, as humans so commonly do.They both agreed that the plane did go up after going down. This re-ascent happened still some way from the runway, they were not low, just lower. They were very insistent that after descending again and getting very low and close to the runway. There was a PA announcement but it could I suppose have been cabin staff, although that seems unlikely if they were very close to the ground. I suppose I don't really mean I'll ask Monarch what actually happened. Just another of those puzzling and never-to-be explained events so common in aviation, art and gardening.

I expect I would accept as a passenger that there might be quite a range within 'acceptable' landings: like my kids, I would not be unduly worried by a firm landing or seemingly odd manoevres. I suppose they could have mistaken levelling off for going up, its just they were really insistent that they could 'feel the back of the seat'.

I like your use of language, a 'carrier' landing on an airport runway, presumably meaning bang it on the threshold quick, a sort of Biggles manoevre. Terrific. Bound to get complaints though.

Why are you so concerned about this incident to be talking to your sons friends or "partners"(don't even want 2 know). The plane landed safely,no one was hurt and the plane was undamaged. What more would you like? In your orginal post you were saying how you were going to file a complaint with the airline. Now your interviewing people? A suggestion for the future, the force of a landing mean nothing as long as nothing is broken. Only non-pilots and uninformed pilots judge others on how gentle the touchdown is alone. There were a million other ways for your son 2 have been incenerated and have been put into multiple bags I would not worry about how comfortable touchdown was and that is the cold hard reality. Perhaps you shall moniter the maintence of every plane he flies on? Maybe stick around with the mechanics for the pre-flight and fuel top off? Then I'm assuming a trip to the control tower is in order 4 you to assure that AC doesn't screw anything up? Anything else I am forgetting? You came off sounding like a typical arrogant and uninformed passenger to me. I'm going to call the airline. I'm going to file complaints,etc. Your orginal post wasn't a mere innocent question. If I'm on a bus and he hits the curb while parking at the destination or has to slam the brakes will I complain if I've made it safely to where I got 2 go. Heck no.

[brianw999]

.......If they came in high on the shorter 08L/26R, there isn't a lot of landing zone there for a 346......

08L/26R is not used as a runway at Gatwick. It's now the biggest, best surfaced taxiway in the world.

[Jingogunner]

Why are you so concerned about this incident to be talking to your sons friends or "partners"(don't even want 2 know). The plane landed safely,no one was hurt and the plane was undamaged. What more would you like? In your orginal post you were saying how you were going to file a complaint with the airline. Now your interviewing people? A suggestion for the future, the force of a landing mean nothing as long as nothing is broken. Only non-pilots and uninformed pilots judge others on how gentle the touchdown is alone. There were a million other ways for your son 2 have been incenerated and have been put into multiple bags I would not worry about how comfortable touchdown was and that is the cold hard reality. Perhaps you shall moniter the maintence of every plane he flies on? Maybe stick around with the mechanics for the pre-flight and fuel top off? Then I'm assuming a trip to the control tower is in order 4 you to assure that AC doesn't screw anything up? Anything else I am forgetting? You came off sounding like a typical arrogant and uninformed passenger to me. I'm going to call the airline. I'm going to file complaints,etc. Your orginal post wasn't a mere innocent question. If I'm on a bus and he hits the curb while parking at the destination or has to slam the brakes will I complain if I've made it safely to where I got 2 go. Heck no.

Please, don't bother speaking to me, I don't want to talk to angry, unpleasant and aggressive people. If you insist on making my ADC experience unpleasant by consistently insulting and accusing me, I will complain to ADC moderators. So please control yourself.

[Jingogunner]

Its very common Jingo.

Remember even on final approach the aircraft is flying at (roughly) 2 degrees nose up. If the pilot wants to slow down his rate of descent, he may pitch up further. That small pitch up to say 3 degrees is enough to make it feel like you are climbing, even though you are actually still descending, just not as quickly as you were before. If it happened earlier on, the pitch up is likely to be larger, and will produce the same effects.

Note this is made somewhat more noticable if your son was not able to see a clear horizon. Was he in a window seat during the day?

Illusions are actually very common in flying when visibility is not good, and can be even disconcerting when they are good. That is what much of the instrument training syllabus covers.

No, he wasn't in a window seat and his sensations were purely physical, so I think you're quite right, they were not ascending, they were levelling off or slowing the r of d. Its a long time since I was on a plane and so everything talked about on this sight is far from my actual experiece, I have to imagine everything.