Sukhoi Superjet missing in Indonesia

[tsv]

Indeed

Back to the bottom line- my beer $ is on this flight having a fairly thorough and broad preflight, maybe not some of the items Evan thinks- but still, quite rigorous.

One would hope so but I don't know. There is considerable history of Russian/Ukrainian Manufacturers crashing their own planes, often during demo flights;

3rd June 1973 - TU144 operated by Tuploev crashes at Paris Air Show attempting a steep climb after a low overpass. Flight Type - Demonstration

23rd December 2002 - AN140 operated by Antonov crashes en route from Kiev to Iran. Passengers were Antonov specialists traveling to Iran to discuss Iranian production of AN-140's. Flight Type - Non Scheduled Passenger

22nd March 2010 - TU204 operated by Aviastar (the Manufacturer) crashes whilst trying to land in Fog at Domodedovo. Flight Type - Ferry

5th March 2011 - AN148 operated by Voronezh Aircraft Production Association crashes in Russia when the Aircraft is flown faster than design limit and breaks up. Flight type - Training/Demo (for Myanmar Airforce Pilots)

9th May 2012 - SU95 operated by Sukhoi crashes into Mountain in Indonesia. Flight Type - Demonstration

It would appear that Poor flight planning was a key cause in most (if not all) of these crashes.

Given this history they should have had about 10 000 people planning every second of these demo flights so absolutely nothing went wrong. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Crew didn't just choose "an entertaining route" for their Guests the night before in the local Bar.

I was really angry when I returned from holidays and saw this news. I just couldn't believe the Manufacturers had yet again crashed an example of their brand new product, not only killing the unfortunate souls on board but putting the entire program in jeopardy. It's really not a good look. If they can't fly their own Aircraft safely why would anyone else order them?

I wonder if Russia will ever adopt a more professional safety culture? I fear it is already too late for their Aviation Industry which is sad because they made a huge and memorable contribution to Aviation.

FWIW I believe the FDR has now been found, http://www.euronews.com/2012/05/31/i...ed-russia-jet/

[Evan]

3rd June 1973 - TU144 operated by Tuploev crashes at Paris Air Show attempting a steep climb after a low overpass. Flight Type - Demonstration

This one is still officially unresolved, but it seems very plausible that the pilots were instructed to push it beyond its safe design limits. There was a fierce rivalry that day between the French Concorde and the Soviet Tu-144. The Concorde had already made an impressive climb-out. You can see the Tu-144 making an even more dramatically steep climb-out at the beginning of its demonstration. After performing a low fly-by, they again climbed very steeply, just prior to the final nose-over and dive. The Tu-144 normally was system limited to 5° elevon deflection with the canards extended, probably making this maneuver impossible, so the engineers that day had disabled the system restriction in order to perform the maneuver. This had latent effects however via system interactions that caused the auto-stabilizer to command a 10° downward elevon when the canards were retracted, which would result in a sudden nose-over and dive, the shock from which may have flamed out the engines. When attempting to recover from the dive, the pilots re-extended the canards, one of which failed due to stress, seperating from the fuselage and striking the wing, causing the wing to explode and separate.

If this theory is correct, the Tu-144 crash was indeed caused by Soviet showboating with disregard for the designed functions of the aircraft. But this was also the Cold War, with pilots taking directives from a reckless Soviet bureaucracy. Hopefully, that culture no longer exists.

The other difference is that the Tu-144 was an airshow demonstration, with no passengers aboard and an emphasis on wowing the audience with aerobatics. The SSJ-95 crash was a passenger demonstration, where one would think the emphasis would be on a smooth, uneventful ride.

The SSJ-95 crash still smells to me like a case of confused situational awareness resulting from poor flight planning and possibly inadequate on-board data—possibly the result of a last minute aircraft substitution and/or runway change—and made fatal by recklessness in disregarding the terrain warnings. All of these things being the result of a poor safety culture...

On the left is Concorde performing a steep departure. On the right is Tu-144 performing more of a fighter jet departure (why?). I think this illustrates the difference in culture that day.

[Evan]

It's really not a good look. If they can't fly their own Aircraft safely why would anyone else order them?

I don't follow that logic. Any pilot can prang any aircraft by flying it into a mountain. The Pakistanis managed to do this with an A321. There's nothing wrong with the A321.

[tsv]

.

On the left is Concorde performing a steep departure. On the right is Tu-144 performing more of a fighter jet departure (why?). I think this illustrates the difference in culture that day.

And dare I suggest the difference in Culture today.

[tsv]

I don't follow that logic. Any pilot can prang any aircraft by flying it into a mountain. The Pakistanis managed to do this with an A321. There's nothing wrong with the A321.

And I doubt there is anything wrong with the TU-204, AN-148 or the Superjet either. But sales are definitely not helped by the Manufacturers pranging them. I realise the TU-204 is hardly competive anymore anyway but the others very much are. As far as I know not a single AN-148 or TU-204 has been sold after their respective crashes.

Out of interest how many aircraft have Boeing and Airbus crashed over the years?

[Highkeas]

...............
Out of interest how many aircraft have Boeing and Airbus crashed over the years?

Ober the last several decades Airbus has crashed at least one airliner and Boeing none as I recall.

[Highkeas]

And I doubt there is anything wrong with the TU-204, AN-148 or the Superjet either. But sales are definitely not helped by the Manufacturers pranging them. I realise the TU-204 is hardly competive anymore anyway but the others very much are. As far as I know not a single AN-148 or TU-204 has been sold after their respective crashes.

Out of interest how many aircraft have Boeing and Airbus crashed over the years?

If you mean crashes by Boeing/Airbus pilots over the last several decades I believe the answer is one.

If you mean due to airline pilot error then a lot.

Then there is the question of design/maintainance defects which probably contributed to a lot of crashes.

[Evan]

Out of interest how many aircraft have Boeing and Airbus crashed over the years?

On demonstration/test flights?

Airbus:

1998 - A320 F-GFKC crashed during demonstration flight - pilot error
1994 - A330 F-WWKH crashed during test flight - A/P error / pilot error
2008 - A320 D-AXLA crashed during test flight - maintenance error / pilot error

Boeing:

None that I know of....

[KGEG]

I was about to post the 2008 incident earlier today but I researched it before doing so and read that none of the people on board were Airbus employees. The pilots were from XL Airways and the other 5 passengers were New Zealander's who were picking up the plane for Air New Zealand from XL Airways, three engineers, a pilot and a member of the CAANZ. Before the test flight light maintenance had been done to the plane, performed at EAS Industries. It had been overhauled at Perpignan by a local company.

[Gabriel]

Boeing:

None that I know of....

Unless you consider MD in that section.
Then you have at least one MD-80 landing accident in a test flight. Pilot error.

[tsv]

On demonstration/test flights?

Boeing:

None that I know of....

I'm no fan of Boeing but I have to congratulate them on that statistic.

[Highkeas]

Unless you consider MD in that section.
Then you have at least one MD-80 landing accident in a test flight. Pilot error.

Could you provide a reference?
Thanks

[Fear_of_Flying]

FWIW I believe the FDR has now been found, http://www.euronews.com/2012/05/31/i...ed-russia-jet/

Yes, it was found by a Search and Rescue team, aka "local villagers" who were still looking for it.

In other news, the CVR has been transcribed, but the contents are not being released.

Also, an official source is claiming that the weather was just fine when the crash occurred, refuting a different earlier official source that the weather was miserable. From http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/...-flight/520585

Head of the Meteorology and Geophysics Agency (BMKG) Sri Woro Harijono on Monday denied all previous claims that the Sukhoi Superjet 100 crashed into Mount Salak because of bad weather...The BMKG report to the House differs from Indonesia’s Institute of Aeronautics and Space (Lapan) that said the Sukhoi Superjet encountered bad weather over Mount Salak before it collided with the mountain

The investigation has yet to inspire confidence, so hopefully the chain of events will speak for themselves once they are revealed.

[Gabriel]

Could you provide a reference?
Thanks

I was thinking of this one:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800502-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEiFZMo1duM&feature=related

Notably this plane was repaired.

But while looking for the links I came across yet another one

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800619-0

This one was not so lucky.

And still the MD-80 family was a commercial success.

No fatalities though.
In both events, pilot error and bad test-flight procedures and policies are mentioned as causes.

[Fear_of_Flying]

Reports concerning this accident continue to come out fast and furious, none of them very credible, yet combined start to give an impression as to what might have transpired.

From yesterday ("The Telegraph"):

Information leaked to a Russian newspaper claims that recordings from the jet's "black box" flight recorder shows that both the automatic avoidance system and another member of the crew tried to dissuade the pilot from a risky manoeuvre minutes before the jet collided with the side of a volcano in Indonesia, killing all 45 people on board.

The newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets said it had been led to understand that at some point in the recording a crew member is heard to shout something along the lines of "commander, we can't go there, there's a mountain," only to be ignored by pilot Alexander Yablontzev.

But the paper said that was not a direct quotation and said that the crew members exact words remain unknown.

The source who provided the information demanded anonymity because it is forbidden to leak details of ongoing air-crash investigations.

A verdict of pilot error would be the most convenient outcome for both makers Sukhoi and the Russian government because it would dispel concerns about the aircraft's safety.

From today's tabloid Pravda:

Russia's Sukhoi Superjet-100 crashed in Indonesia because of a whole complex of reasons, including the human factor, investigators said. The specialists studied the information that they could obtain from the flight recorders and came to conclusion that there was a potential customer staying in the cockpit shortly before the aircraft slammed into the mountain. However, the customer was not interfering into the actions of the crew. The person was only interested in the technical performance of the airplane.
A source close to investigation told RIA Novosti news agency on conditions of anonymity that the Terrain Awareness and Warning System was active during the demonstration flight. The pilots, investigators believe, received visual and audio signals warning of the mountain slope ahead. However, they ignored the signals because they were certain that they were flying above a valley, at a safe altitude. An Indonesian flight control officer approved a descent from 10 to 6 thousand feet. The pilots could not see the mountain on time because of thick clouds.
The crew supposedly received a signal from another onboard signal. The system said that the aircraft was flying low above the ground and prompted the extension of the landing gear. Being at a loss about the relief of the area, the commander decided to deactivate the automatic equipment to descend independently. "It could be possible that the crewmembers were certain until the very last moment that they were flying above a valley," the source said.
The pilots contacted the Indonesian flight control officer to find out whether it was possible to continue the flight as before. However, the officer did not respond. The Indonesian side had problems with either communication or location, which may often happen in mountainous areas.