Acces To the Flight Deck.

[screaming_emu]

Can someone confirm 100% that visiting flight deck inflight is not allowed on any airline and when this rule was implemented?

Yes i went up two weeks ago.
I have no affiliation to an airline, airport, airplane, or ground control.
Im just a 15 year old who knows how to play the pilots right.
But if you do the right things you can get up there, especially on airline like TACA.

LMAO...I'm sorry, but in reality until you've been through basic indoc and sim training at an airline, you really don't know what they're doing. Trust me

i already did so believe me, it helps

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead an believe that at the age of 15 you've been through newhire training at an airline.

[Gabriel]

Code 14 CFR, Sec. 121.547

Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is--
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who--
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of--
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator.

This applies to the US, but most countries have similar regs.

So the only chance for a "normal" person would be a(4): To get a permit signed by a manager of the Airline, the FAA, and the pilot in command. That's how, for example, journalists of specialized magazines get to the flight deck in flight.

Another legal way, not included here, is that the pilot in command can deviate from any rule during an emergency, to the extent he judges necessary. So for example a doctor can be admitted to the flight deck to help with a medical emergency with a flight crew member, or a passenger pilot can be admitted to help if one of the flight crew members gets sick and can't continue with his duties.

Finally, there is an illegal way, that is the pilot in command not following this rule and admitting a friend into the flight deck. It happens.

A question for Emu: how does this rule differentiate from the plane being on ground vs flying? It seems to ban all access to the flight deck at any time period. I guess there must be something out there, but I fail to find it.

[screaming_emu]

A question for Emu: how does this rule differentiate from the plane being on ground vs flying? It seems to ban all access to the flight deck at any time period. I guess there must be something out there, but I fail to find it.

Hmm, that's a good point. Yet another gray area in the FARs. There are a lot of those. I'd say it probably could fall under 3(i), the part about having the permission of the PIC.

I'm sure there's something about it in our company manuals, but 1) they're at work and 2) I'm hesitant to post anything that isn't public knowledge about security online. Never know who is reading.

[Gabriel]

Hmm, that's a good point. Yet another gray area in the FARs. There are a lot of those. I'd say it probably could fall under 3(i), the part about having the permission of the PIC.

Uh, uh...
3 requires (i) AND (ii), (i) by itself is not enough, and even then (i) requires the PIC, AND the airline management AND the FAA to sign.

By the way, it looks to me that 3 is pretty useless, because 4 includes 3 with less requirements. If you comply with 3 (i) but not 3 (ii), then you don't comply with 3 but do comply with 4, and you can be admitted by 4.

Maybe the catch is that this section is within subpart T: "Flight operations"?

I'm sure there's something about it in our company manuals, but 1) they're at work and 2) I'm hesitant to post anything that isn't public knowledge about security online. Never know who is reading.

Ok, but even then the company manuals cannot waive an FAA requirement.

[screaming_emu]

Ok, but even then the company manuals cannot waive an FAA requirement.

Eh...yes and no. It is in the FAA regs that we must follow our Flight Operations Manual, so in a way our manuals ARE FAA regs.

That being said I have no doubt that if we followed our company manuals and violated an FAA reg the company would have no hesitation to throw us under the bus.

[Gabriel]

Eh...yes and no. It is in the FAA regs that we must follow our Flight Operations Manual, so in a way our manuals ARE FAA regs.

That being said I have no doubt that if we followed our company manuals and violated an FAA reg the company would have no hesitation to throw us under the bus.

I think, and hope, that if you violate the FARs by following your company manuals, the FAA would throw your company operations manager under the bus.

Yes, you MUST follow your FOM.
But your company MUST write the FOM in adherence to the FARs.

This is a stretch, but I guess that if you detect that the FAR and the FOM are in disagreement, apart from advising your company, you'll have to do the thing that complies with both (for example if the FAR say "no admittance to the flight deck, ground or flight" and your manual say "no admittance to the flight deck in flight", then not admitting complies with both). And if that's impossible because they are contradictory, and complying with one would mean necessarily not complying with the other, you should follow the FARs because that part of the manual would be illegal (doesn't comply with the legal requirement of complying with the FARs).

[turbotraker]

I don’t know for sure but I think it became more or less an ironclad rule since 9/11;. It might have something to do with the events that transpired that day. You think?

Things were a lot different back in the 60s and 70s. Back then my father and I were invited into the cockpit in flight on several occasions on commercial airliners.

Contrary to what one of the other posters advice was for the current paranoid litigative politically correct climate; back in the older days it seemed all you had to do is mention that you were a pilot or in the aviation industry and there was a good chance you would be invited up to the cockpit; often even when the aircraft was flying.

I by no means object to the inflight ban of passengers access to the cockpit; in light of current events and the moral decay. Regrettably there are some freedoms that have to be lost. This is one of the few loss of freedoms that I agree with; regrettably.

I am fully aware of what happened that day. Am also aware of the implications of an unlocked door could lead to during a flight.
I ask as I recently watched a TV documentary on a UK low cost airline. During the flight, a passenger was allowed into flightdeck. Now I thought that was not allowed but it was shown in this programme.

[CanVoodoo]

It is my recollection that in-flight visits by passengers to the cockpit of United States aircraft have been banned at least since the 1970s -- I can recall flying American 1n 1978, and the magazine made it very clear that in-flight visits were not allowed, and that if you wanted to see the cockpit, the only possibility was after the flight.

Elsewhere, the reality was different. Before 9/11 on Canadian airliners, it was usually possible to visit the cockpit, and I often took the opportunity on longer flights. You just asked the flight attendant if it would be possible, and usually they would come back a little later and conduct you up front. I did this numerous times on Air Canada and Wardair in the seventies, eighties and nineties.

My ultimate experience was courtesy of a BWIA crew in 1978. We were flying from Toronto to Piarco on a BWIA 707, and I made my usual request to visit the cockpit. This was granted, and I spent a few minutes up there. Then, something unprecedented happened -- the First Officer got up out of his seat, and asked me if I wanted to sit there (!). Needless to say, I took the opportunity, and spent a heavenly five minutes or so sitting in the right seat of a 707 in flight. It was a highlight of my life up to that point, and it is still one of my favorite aviation moments. I wonder if that crew knew just how much it meant to me.

While I can fully understand the policy regarding cockpit visits in light of 9/11, it's sad that my son will probably never be able to have the experience of visiting an airliner cockpit in flight.

Martin

[TeeVee]

Not sure about the 70's thing because I was in cockpit, in-flight in the mid 80's. While it was on a chartered flight, albeit commercial, I was allowed in the cockpit of an MD-80 flying from CUN to JFK. All I did was ask.

[brianw999]

Can someone confirm 100% that visiting flight deck inflight is not allowed on any airline and when this rule was implemented?

It's not allowed on just about any airline you care to name. Not sure if it's embedded in law or just company policies.....but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As for when it was implemented ?

12th September 2001 would be a good guess.

[aviatordom]

Most crews are more than happy for someone to take an interest in their job by asking to look at the flight-deck.

Top tip: if your lucky and get in, ask for some paperwork that they don't need! I've accumulated some, it makes quite a nice souvenir having lots of bits of paper with weather charts, fuel figures, weight figures, times, routing info, etc.

My best flight-deck so far was in May on a BA 757. Had a nice long chat with the Captain and could've quite happily sat in the F/O's seat all day. i was in there for so long that the bus to go to the terminal had left, so I was waiting for around 10 minutes on the apron for the bus to come and was left chatting with the crew!