MCAS Strikes Again…

[3WE]

…sort of

Dan Juan is suggesting a 400-hour instrument? pilot was pushing buttons and wound up in a steep dive in severe VMC/daylight.

I was first going to say he was crazy, then he showed a YouTube where she’s trying to climb at low power.

Still, it’s hard to comprehend how you would dive it in without Fing TGDA…and how an instructor would sign off for testing and an examiner would pass you.

I WANTED to blame carbano uno oxygeno, but the gal’s own YouTube is pretty damning…self-enacted MCAS.

https://youtu.be/ViO1j1iYn18?si=-9a6CeGpgKw8tA6b

Search term for Gabriel: TNFlygirl Crash Dec. 7

We need more oversight.

[Evan]

Blancolirio is clearly not impressed! Looks to me like she climbed without power into a stall warning, then slammed on power and pitched down with the elevator badly out of trim in the earthbound direction. My question would be: how does one get that many hours (or even one hour) without an instinctive understanding of pitch and power? And the autopilot issue should remind you that type-specific training is sort of important. I believe you still cajole me for pointing out that a crew accustomed to flying a dumb 737-100 can climb into a 737-200 and assume the fancy autopilot is magically adding power when it simply doesn't work that way.

[3WE]

Yes Evan, the type specific off button is universally important.

That being said, I think they are amazingly standard: A button on the yoke or just grab the GD wheel and choose a good attitude.

Talk all the type specific crap you want AFTER the fundamental of FTGDA and FDnH pitch, airspeed and power (to hell with exact values) is achieved. (Same for -200 and -236A airplanes- if the world is going to hell at 50 feet, shove one thing forward and give the other a healthy, but monitored and measured pull. If you are struggling to hold 6500 calmly turn the thing off.

FDGDAutopilot (a naughty F-word)

Dan Juan and witnesses, and ground speed suggest the plane was not_stalled.

[Evan]

I didn’t suggest that it was stalled. I suggested that a stall warning led to the powered dive and the trim condition made recovery with pitch alone impossible. The autopilot issue concerns power, the fact that she seems (from the videos) to assume that there is some auto throttle function. That would explain the climb without adding power. Just laying on the UP button like it’s a different sort of elevator…

[Gabriel]

Blancolirio is clearly not impressed! Looks to me like she climbed without power into a stall warning, then slammed on power and pitched down with the elevator badly out of trim in the earthbound direction. My question would be: how does one get that many hours (or even one hour) without an instinctive understanding of pitch and power? And the autopilot issue should remind you that type-specific training is sort of important. I believe you still cajole me for pointing out that a crew accustomed to flying a dumb 737-100 can climb into a 737-200 and assume the fancy autopilot is magically adding power when it simply doesn't work that way.

The autopilot off and fly the damn plane concept is pretty NOT_type specific.

[3WE]

After watching another FlyGirl video, I saw something critical AND am back on the carbano y uno oxygeno theory

In the video, she’s flying along with no understanding of the pitch power businesses commenting that she’s getting a bit too slow…

THEN, SHE CLICKS OFF THE AUTOPILOT AND IS HAPPY AS THE AIRSPEED IMPROVES…

I know she doesn’t understand a lot of stuff, but she does demonstrate that one fundamental that the -200 vs 236A pilots did not.

A sad truth is that we might find out exactly what happened if the memory card in a GoPro or two survived.

[3WE]

Turn the autopilot off and fly the damn plane concept is pretty NOT_type specific.

Are you reasonably sure about that?

[Evan]

The autopilot off and fly the damn plane concept is pretty NOT_type specific.

No, but the reason to switch off the autopilot and fly the damn plane might be. We have seen incidents where CTPL pilots with a festoon of hours have neglected to fly the damn plane because they assumed the damned plane was flying itself in a way or in a condition it isn't designed to fly its damn self. And then, when things get pear shaped, and they become bewildered and panicked, and disoriented and time-compressed, they jump in and either survive a messy upset or don't survive a messy smoking hole. I'm guessing this is what happened after she decided to fly the damned plane. If, however, it had been made clear to her that the autopilot only controls attitude and must be used in coordination with manual power setting, I'm guessing she would still be on YouTube, frightening us with her crackerjack PPL adventures.

[3WE]

“Pilots sometimes let the autopilot fly too much.”

…and Evan’s solution is more training on autopilots and less on fundamentals…

[3WE]

If you are going around at 50 feet there is no excuse for not watching the instruments and lightly grabbing ALL the controls and doing your own thing if there’s any delay…

Show me a checklist that says push TOGA and relax.

[Evan]

Show me a checklist that says push TOGA and relax.

Not exactly. This is a high workload maneuver. Pilot is flying a type with inadequate type training. Engages TOGA, assumes power comes with it. Busy with flap retraction, gear retraction, area nav, coms... What's this?! The ground cometh up to smite me? But I engaged the TOGA!!

[3WE]

Not exactly. This is a high workload maneuver. Pilot is flying a type with inadequate type training. Engages TOGA, assumes power comes with it. Busy with flap retraction, gear retraction, area nav, coms... What's this?! The ground cometh up to smite me? But I engaged the TOGA!!

Believe it or not- I tend to believe that two people working together can shove an ergonomically ok handful of power levers forward, pull something back a skillfully measured amount glance at four instruments AND move the flap lever.

Some other fundamental rule says screw the radios, and monitor the GD airplane if it’s doing the flying at a critical time.

Is it better to forget the stuff above, or forget that the -236A autopilot doesn’t trim when in FUBAR mode on Thursdays and the cabin lights set to medium.

[Evan]

Believe it or not- I tend to believe that two people working together can shove an ergonomically ok handful of power levers forward, pull something back a skillfully measured amount glance at four instruments AND move the flap lever.

And they do, almost always.

There is something we like to call the swiss cheese model. You should look into that.

The more layers of protection you have, with the least holes in each layer, the safer you are.

Not understanding how your particular autopilot works is gaping hole in that slice, which actually makes that slice prone to rotting away the other slices as well.

Also, we have learned that the 'fly-the-damn-place' slice has some holes of its own.

[Gabriel]

And they do, almost always.

There is something we like to call the swiss cheese model. You should look into that.

The more layers of protection you have, with the least holes in each layer, the safer you are.

Not understanding how your particular autopilot works is gaping hole in that slice, which actually makes that slice prone to rotting away the other slices as well.

Also, we have learned that the 'fly-the-damn-place' slice has some holes of its own.

I agree. What I never understood is why would you trust a pilot why can't fly the damn plane with being skillful with the autopilot.
There is an order of things to learn and an order of priorities. There are prerequisites and dependencies. You don't get to enroll for the autopilot class of you didn't master the fly-the-damn-plane class first.

[Evan]

I agree. What I never understood is why would you trust a pilot why can't fly the damn plane with being skillful with the autopilot.

Again with the either/or. It's both Gabriel. I only trust a pilot with both necessary skills. Because not having either one or the other has caused so many smoking holes.