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  • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
    AIRBUS COMPUTERS...BAD or GOOD??
    Myndee, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here, but I can tell you there is no simple answer. There are a lot of technical things you have to understand first. Keep in mind that my understanding of the B777 FBW is incomplete, and there seem to be outlying parameters in the Airbus FBW that are not listed in the FCOM or FCTM.

    If the question is 'computer flight control and FBW in general: bad or good', than I have to break it to you that every new aircraft introduced now and into the foreseeable future will have these features. Customers (operators) are looking for lower operating costs, and FBW computer flight control provides lower fuel cost and reduced mechanical maintenance costs. And it provides greater range and added safety features to boot.

    Now, if your question is 'Airbus vs Boeing FBW philosophy: which is better', that is an ongoing debate. FBW is here to stay (until we get to FBWiFi or FBL or FB4G or something). Both Airbus and Boeing FBW aircraft function similarly during take-off, landing and automated flight segments (autopilot(s) engaged). The principal difference between Airbus and Boeing FBW philosophy lies in the means of pilot/system interaction and the level of authority that pilot is given in manual flight where automated flight is the norm. Boeing seems to trust the pilot more, and has chosen to make the system emulate conventional aircraft characteristics without restricting the pilot from exceeding the safe operating envelope. It gives more physical feedback to the pilot but places a higher workload on the pilot as well. Airbus seems to trust the computers more and has given authority to the computer to restrict the pilot from exceeding the safe operating envelope. It gives most physical feedback to the computers instead of the pilots but, in doing so, has also reduced some of the traditional piloting workload.

    The two most obvious places to notice this are in the protections and the trim characteristics. Boeing stall and envelope protections are really only deterrents, which the pilot can override by force. They are there only to inform the pilot, and they assume the pilot will always know the correct thing to do. Airbus protections are actual limitations. The pilot can pull or roll or push all he wants but the plane will not exceed a safe envelope. This assumes the pilot may not always know the correct thing to do.

    As for trim characteristics, the Boeing system retains (artificially when in normal law) the self-correcting aspect of positive static speed stability. When the pilot lets the speed depart from the trim speed for the attitude he is flying, he will notice this as control force pressure, as in a conventional aircraft, and will have to retrim to remain at that attitude without having to apply constant force on the column. This self-correcting tendency is known as static speed stability. But at any given time during manual flight the Boeing may or may not be in trim and the pilot needs to constantly correct trim for changes in speed or attitude.

    In comparison, the Airbus system essentially automates this retrim procedure, and therefore provides feedback to the computers but no feedback to the controls. The aircraft is never out-of-trim, regardless of attitude or airspeed and so the pilot workload is reduced (aside from minor corrections on the sidestick if the aircraft deviates from its intended flight path.). Since the Airbus computers will not allow the aircraft to fly too slow or pitch up too high, and has overspeed protections as well, there is no need for traditional static speed stability 'feel'.

    Those are the main differences in normal manual flight, oversimplified perhaps, but essentially it gives you the picture. Both give superior flight characteristics and allow for less drag and greater range and efficiency than conventional aircraft. Both are immensely well protected against failure of the FBW control system itself.

    Since these commercial jets are intended to fly in automation from just after lift-off all the way down to flare, these systemic differences are usually a non-issue, and therefore both are very safe, BUT, and here is the relevant thing: both Airbus and Boeing automated flight require redundancy, both will disconnect if redundancy is lost, and neither system can be considered fully redundant because air data systems are not redundant, since both rely on external sensors that can be expected to fail simultaneously to a common environmental fault, like ice ingestion. Therefore, aircraft control needs to be fault tolerant, adaptable to manual flight without systems that rely on air data (such as stall protection).

    This is where the debate centers.

    In manual flight, with air data lost and stall protections unavailable, it is essential that the pilot has a means of stabilizing the plane and remaining within a safe speed envelope until the problem clears itself up and autopilot can be restored. Boeing does this via traditional control column feedback. If the aircraft is flying too slow, the nose will lower due to the aerodynamics of positive static stability and the pilot will feel the column pull away from him. To maintain the flight path he will either have to increase airspeed or retrim for the slower speed. It works in reverse for overspeed. Therefore, the pilot can approximate the correct airspeed by 'feel' (but he can also retrim and fly outside the safe envelope, which could lead to disaster). The Boeing uses a 'load-factor demand law' that will normally hold the flight path (altitude in level flight), however:
    • An established flight path remains unchanged unless the pilot changes it through a control column input, or if the airspeed changes and the speed stability function takes effect.
    The Airbus also uses a load factor demand law, but, between stall and overspeed limits, it retrims automatically using accelerometers to maintain 1G, even without air data. The pilot cannot gauge speed by 'feel', since there is no 'feel' on the sidestick. Instead he must follow a very simple set of memory items (pitch and thrust settings) and/or he may manually adjust pitch trim using the alternate pitch trim wheel, which will cancel automated pitch trim for the duration of the flight and restore natural static speed stability. He should then be able to gauge speed by observing the HSI (attitude indications), and must manually retrim to maintain flight path with changes in airspeed, much like the Boeing.

    Even if he doesn't adjust the manual pitch trim, because stall protections are lost the system will also restore static speed stability at the limits of the speed envelope:
    At the flight envelope limit, the aircraft is not protected:
    . In high speed, natural aircraft static stability is restored with an overspeed warning
    . In low speed, the auto pitch trim stops at Vc prot (below VLS), and natural longitudinal static stability is restored, with a stall warning at 1.03 VS1g.
    However, there are system limitations during an unreliable airspeed event that might prevent this:

    In certain failure cases, such as the loss of VS1g computation or the loss of two ADRs, the longitudinal static stability cannot be restored at low speed. In the case of a loss of three ADRs, it cannot be restored at high speed.
    (AF447 seems to have suffered a disagreement between two ADR's. I don't know if this equates to a loss of two ADR's.)

    Now, in my view, the newer Boeing 777 system is more conducive to manual flight, when air data is unreliable and the aircraft can be safely flown using traditional pilot instincts ASSUMING THE PILOT DOES KNOW WHAT TO DO.

    This, in itself, DOES NOT make the Airbus systems unsafe however. Airbus has provided a means to stabilize and control the aircraft during everything from a single system failure (no effect at all) to a full electrical failure (mechanical cable control) ASSUMING THE PILOT KNOWS WHAT TO DO. The requirements for unreliable airspeed procedure are different from traditional piloting, but they are no more difficult to perform. They just require new instincts, which are developed through proper training.

    Ideally, I would like to see Airbus integrate additional systems in response to what will be learned here, perhaps even a means to allow the autopilot to continue in an unreliable airspeed mode, at least temporarily. Unreliable airspeed is a transient condition that usually clears up within a few minutes. Also, the detent-range A/THR is unsafe in my opinion and needs to be servo-driven. But, based on the fact that the great majority of fatal crashes are caused by poor pilot judgment (or reaction), I still prefer the Airbus protection philosophy, although they clearly need to make some better provisions for when those protections are lost and the pilot lacks direct 'feel' for static speed stability (the BUSS back-up speed scale system is an indication that they recognize this need).

    All that said, none of the evidence released thus far indicates that this crash was related to these aspects of system philosophy, and therefore the result would have been the same in a 777 or a 707.

    Comment


    • Evan - thank you very much for that very informative post.
      Yet another AD.com convert!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        All that said, none of the evidence released thus far indicates that this crash was related to these aspects of system philosophy, and therefore the result would have been the same in a 777 or a 707.

        Absolutely NOT! Once again all of your book smart learning and flight sim flying does not a pilot make you!!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          Absolutely NOT! Once again all of your book smart learning and flight sim flying does not a pilot make you!!
          You know, saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more meaningful or true. And really, if that's all you have to say, then I don't care if you're a WWI flying ace, you bring nothing to this forum. Why don't you head over to pprune, where you'll find all sorts of experts with first hand experience... oh, yeah, I forgot, you wouldn't last 30 seconds on pprune. Just try throwing out a line there about "fancy electronic shit". It would be laughable except the moderators would remove it before anyone had a chance to read it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
            Absolutely NOT! Once again all of your book smart learning and flight sim flying does not a pilot make you!!
            Am I wrong about that? If you continue to pull up into a developing stall situation in the 707, will it not stall? Will it still fly at an AoA exceeding 40°? I'm not a pilot so please tell me how the 707 outcome is different in this scenario.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
              You know, saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more meaningful or true. And really, if that's all you have to say, then I don't care if you're a WWI flying ace, you bring nothing to this forum. Why don't you head over to pprune, where you'll find all sorts of experts with first hand experience... oh, yeah, I forgot, you wouldn't last 30 seconds on pprune. Just try throwing out a line there about "fancy electronic shit". It would be laughable except the moderators would remove it before anyone had a chance to read it.

              Been a member of pprune since 1999, never had a problem there, oh that is right, most of the members there are professional pilots.

              My response was to the 707 comment by Evan. The 707 as I am sure you are aware of has full manual reversion control surfaces. This accident would not have happened in a 707 with a competent crew at the controls. And I have never blamed the A330 for the problem if you read my post over. Again I do not think this is a Boeing better Airbus bad thing. I have all along said that this was a pilot error accident.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                My response was to the 707 comment by Evan. The 707 as I am sure you are aware of has full manual reversion control surfaces. This accident would not have happened in a 707 with a competent crew at the controls.
                Based on what we know so far, this accident would not have happened in an A330 with a competent crew at the controls. Do you see my point?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  Based on what we know so far, this accident would not have happened in an A330 with a competent crew at the controls. Do you see my point?

                  I agree with this statement completely, however that is not what you said in your last one unless I misunderstood the implication.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    I agree with this statement completely, however that is not what you said in your last one unless I misunderstood the implication.
                    My implication was that, based on all the BEA information released thus far, this appears to be a case of pilot error that would result in a stall regardless of whether the aircraft was an A330 or a 777 or a 707. It has nothing to do with FBW system control philosophy or full manual reversion control surfaces. It has everything to do with on-type competence and managing AoA.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Am I wrong about that? If you continue to pull up into a developing stall situation in the 707, will it not stall? Will it still fly at an AoA exceeding 40°? I'm not a pilot so please tell me how the 707 outcome is different in this scenario.

                      Sorry Evan, I did not see this post earlier. You again are correct, If the nose is not dropped and the wing allowed to develop lift again, the stall would continue. In order for Bernoulli's principle to work there has to be sufficent air flow over the wing. And again I want to reiterate that I firmly believe that this should have been able to be accomplished in the Airbus 330.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
                        ...................
                        I am not going to ask a crapload of questions. All I am going to ask is:

                        AIRBUS COMPUTERS...BAD or GOOD??
                        I'm a bit out of date but I understand many of the avionics boxes on Airbus aircraft are made in the USA - it helped with FAA certification.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                          If the nose is not dropped and the wing allowed to develop lift again, the stall would continue. In order for Bernoulli's principle to work there has to be sufficent air flow over the wing.
                          I hope you're taking notes, Evan, you might just learn a thing or two here.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            If the nose is not dropped and the wing allowed to develop lift again, the stall would continue. In order for Bernoulli's principle to work there has to be sufficent air flow over the wing.
                            Have you been paying any attention, BoeingBobby? Evan and Gabriel have been discussing the physics of this accident on a whole different plateau than most of us on this forum. Then, after you come along and rip Evan repeatedly for having too much theoretical and not enough practical knowledge, you pull out this, what? fifth grade science lesson?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
                              Have you been paying any attention, BoeingBobby? Evan and Gabriel have been discussing the physics of this accident on a whole different plateau than most of us on this forum. Then, after you come along and rip Evan repeatedly for having too much theoretical and not enough practical knowledge, you pull out this, what? fifth grade science lesson?
                              this is perhaps the the FINEST example of butt-kissing i have ever witnessed in an online forum. absolutely classic!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                                this is perhaps the the FINEST example of butt-kissing i have ever witnessed in an online forum. absolutely classic!
                                Ah, the voice of reason rings through. And what possible reason would I have to butt-kiss? As I'm sure you recall, I've had plenty of issues with Evan's posts, and when I do, I make my point and move on. The incessant beating of the "You're not a pilot" drum, however, as though that were an argument in and of itself, is vacuous.

                                Comment

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