Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

[Gabriel]

To anyone who can answer this:

What are the inner and outer boundaries of the radiation plot?

[Northwester]

To anyone who can answer this:

What are the inner and outer boundaries of the radiation plot?

I don't know if this answers the question.

[3WE]

I find something like this to be kind of believeable:

In the course of the investigation, inconsistencies are discovered in navaids.

In classic, political, dysfunctional, oh-crap, CYA mode; efforts are made to cover up those shortcomings.

A conspiracy to cause a plane crash and kill the Polish president?

No.

A mis-adjusted naviad could cause a crash?

Yes.

A mis-adjusted navaid could cause this crash?

No.

A conspiracy to cover up some shoddy operations?

Stranger things have happened.

Or, maybe they ran out of coal.

[Northwester]

I'm with you on the possibility that this TU-154M might have had a different autopilot logic than the standard M. We should wait and see on that point. But if so, the Polish would not need a test flight to determine that, they would already know that, and I would have expected such exculpatory information to have been presented by now since this item is key to determining the competency of the flight crew.

I'm even wondering if this might not be the result of a miscommunication in training on a very recently upgraded and unique aircraft, where the crew were incorrectly told that the automated GA would now work on a non-precision approach, maybe by an avionics supplier not familiar with the installation. Maybe it incorrectly worked on the sim. Is there a sim for this configuration? Lots of questions. Wait and see.

I think if this is the case of an equipment upgrade where a separate OM exists and there are functions that are not included in the standard FCOM, it makes sense to test those functions in flight to make sure they work every time as expected. There is a suspicion that something did not work properly, so it would not be enough to say: the OM says it must work. I would imagine there are not too many opportunities to practice automatic GA without an ILS these days.

[Evan]

I would imagine there are not too many opportunities to practice automatic GA without an ILS these days.

Now you're on the right track.

[guamainiac]

The FCOM was in Russian but the Captain was the only one fluent in Russian, there was a LOT manual found but there was no confirmed translation to Polish since 1994?

[Northwester]

An example of a creative investigation:

Top picture - April 10th, 2010
Middle picture - April 12th, 2010
Bottom - from the report

Part # 33 (a fragment of left stabilizer with elevator) changed position between the 10th and 12th of April.
Why would they move this part?

[guamainiac]

I would not read too much into that. What would be gained? The trajectory is readily visible.

"Ivan" started the front end loader to clean up.

Or part of the recovery operation for body parts?

[Northwester]

I would not read too much into that. What would be gained? The trajectory is readily visible.

"Ivan" started the front end loader to clean up.

Or part of the recovery operation for body parts?

You might be right.
But everything else is still in the same place. I don't know.

[guamainiac]

Can you comment on the Russian manual and no authorized translation.

It seems with a cockpit upgrade that would have been critical?

[Northwester]

Can you comment on the Russian manual and no authorized translation.

It seems with a cockpit upgrade that would have been critical?

I don't know enough about it yet. But I think that the original FCOM is quite old and if there were any updates, they are old too. Some of the equipment upgrades in the Polish Tu-154 were done with non-Russian equipment, so the Russian FCOM would not cover it. I would not be surprised if the last translation was from 1994. There is probably not much new that happened afterwards. And who would authorize a translation? There are enough Russian language experts in Poland to do a perfect translation (untill 1990 or so everyone in Poland had Russian at school and all universities had Russian studies) and not that many Polish language experts in Russia.

[guamainiac]

Northwester would you ??

Northwester, do you have any insight to the Tu-154 incident at Chkalovsky Airfield around April 30 of this year.

Other than one scant comment about the aircraft just coming out of mothballs there is nothing.

The only thing it reminds me of is the UA 232 crash at Sioux City, Iowa, where the hydraulics were severed on a DC 10. The oscillations on the Tu do not appear as severe but it somehow eerily familiar. In that incident the #2 has an uncontained failure that takes out all 3 hydraulic systems. Perhaps severely contaminated fluids that allowed mushy but partial control?

[Northwester]

Northwester, do you have any insight to the Tu-154 incident at Chkalovsky Airfield around April 30 of this year.

Other than one scant comment about the aircraft just coming out of mothballs there is nothing.

The only thing it reminds me of is the UA 232 crash at Sioux City, Iowa, where the hydraulics were severed on a DC 10. The oscillations on the Tu do not appear as severe but it somehow eerily familiar. In that incident the #2 has an uncontained failure that takes out all 3 hydraulic systems. Perhaps severely contaminated fluids that allowed mushy but partial control?

Is this the one you are talking about?

http://youtu.be/tXAdr3bQnaw

After 10 years of being mothballed who would test fly a plane in order to find out what needs to be fixed?! That's crazy! A whole range of things could have gone wrong, electronic, electric, hydraulic. The accident (explosion and fire) in Surgut would indicate that there is a wider range of problems with Tu-154.

[guamainiac]

That is the one. Is there any chatter on what happened with the systems?

Good vid too thank you!

Now the female commentator says ........... "the _______ system broke down and the pilots were only able to land on the second attempt"

I really tried to understand the missing word. I am getting a tad deaf and the Brit accent gets me sometimes. I hate it when I watch Jeremy Clarkson in Top Gear and he gets to a key piece and I have to get someone to interpret. That said, my wife is a "Speech Language Pathologist" and has keen hearing and even she, after several replays will give up on Clarkson.

[Evan]

Now the female commentator says ........... "the _______ system broke down and the pilots were only able to land on the second attempt"

I really tried to understand the missing word. I am getting a tad deaf and the Brit accent gets me sometimes. I hate it when I watch Jeremy Clarkson in Top Gear and he gets to a key piece and I have to get someone to interpret. That said, my wife is a "Speech Language Pathologist" and has keen hearing and even she, after several replays will give up on Clarkson.

"The steering system broke down..."

Does that help? I didn't think so.

These guys are truly amazed to be alive.