Southwest Airlines Nose Gear Collapse at LGA

[BoeingBobby]

You mean like what my instructor did many times with me for bending-avoidance?

Ok, so we have:

1- A flare, followed by a pitch down, and the airplane touching down in a 3° nose-down pitch.
2- 11 knots of tailwind at 1000ft, 11 knots of headwind at zero feet. This is at least a wind gradient, but likely some windshear too since in typical wind gradients the wind speed diminishes with altitude (due to drag with the ground) but it doesn't reverse.
3- A take-over "at some point below 400ft" (anything from 399 to zero qualifies) and about 10 seconds before touchdown (which puts the plane in the ballpark of 50 / 100 ft).

Would you care (or anybody) care to speculate?

Without being there, it would only be speculation. Let us wait and see what the FDR & CVR comes out with.

[BoeingBobby]

O.K. Brian, I think he has gone a little to far. How about you pull the plug!

[Evan]

I heard a brief report on the TV, attrubuted to NTSB, that the FO was flying the aircraft and 10-seconds before touchdown the captain took controll of the aircraft. Here is one report:

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/20130806-ntsb-captain-took-over-southwest-flight-just-before-landing-at-new-york-laguardia.ece

Is this an unusual switch (unless due to an emergency)?

Where are you getting "10-seconds before touchdown"? All reports I have read only indicate "at a point below 400 feet". Technically, that point could be, say, 32 feet...

This was the first flight these pilots had crewed together on (second cycle). One could speculate that some confusion may have occurred on the handoff. It still doesn't seem to add up though...

[Highkeas]

Where are you getting "10-seconds before touchdown"? .............

One of last evenings three TV news programs (ABC, CBS or NBC). I reported this in my previous post but I put little faith in the news reports when they discuss aircraft and anything to do with my expertise.

[brianw999]

He's baiting you Brian. He wants to be banned. It's like jihad. What's the best way to deal with jihad martyrs? You martyr them. Everyone wins.

Please martyr this bastard.

He can bait me until the cows come home on their own, doesn't bother me. I've had 33 years of dealing with twats like him and I've won every battle so far. What does bother me though is the way he's slamming in to other respected contributors here. That's unacceptable so I'm leaving it to the site owner to decide Joe's fate. Watch this space.

[seahawk]

Thread cleaned up, posting rights withdrawn where deemed necessary.

[snydersnapshots]

For what it's worth, I got this from my dad, who received it from a friend of his who is also in the airline business:

Sent: Monday, 26 August, 2013 20:55
Subject: Southwest Crash
Just passing it on.
Got this from a friend who knew the guy who wrote this:

This in regards to the Laguardia wreck a couple of weeks ago. He’s a former
co-worker of mine.

Just got off the phone with my buddy in the Southwest training dept.
The captain was a... from SFO. She also was number one on the pilots
don't want to fly with list. The FO was on his 2nd trip on that AC. He
was an AirTrans guy they just trained. She did screw up.
Instead of going around, as they teach them when they change commands
on final, she tried to fix a unfixable situation. Anyway, he got some
ground school and a sim ride. She is fired.
They actually do have an “I-don't-want-to-fly-with-this-asshole” list, and
it’s official. I think scheduling maintains it.

Both crew members were knocked unconscious on impact. There was an
American Airlines Pilot on their jump seat. He pulled them out of the
cockpit. Wouldn't you love to hear the last minutes comments on the
voice recorder or have seen the American pilots eyes on that approach.

[Evan]

For what it's worth, I got this from my dad, who received it from a friend of his who is also in the airline business:

Let's hope they have an "FO's who are afraid to speak up" list as well, and keep them away from the ones on the asshole list.

[EconomyClass]

Lovely. Hate to be the guy who is forced to fly with anyone on that list. Um. Could a sudden illness strike the person, eliminating him from the rotation? I've seen any number of people get out of a work situation that has "bad" written all over it. Question on my mind is why can't the airlines deal effectively with pilots who get on those lists? Is the shortage of certified pilots that bad?

[snydersnapshots]

Lovely. Hate to be the guy who is forced to fly with anyone on that list. Um. Could a sudden illness strike the person, eliminating him from the rotation? I've seen any number of people get out of a work situation that has "bad" written all over it.

Yes, that can and I'm sure sometimes does happen. There are a couple of things at play in the SWA accident. First, the F/O was brand new and may not have known the reputation of the captain. Secondly, if he DID know the reputation (and if it was his second trip I'm betting he didn't) he may not have wanted to call in "sick" when he really wasn't a) because he may not have had any sick time built up and b) because he didn't want to start his career by making waves.

The worst captain I ever flew with had quite a reputation, though I didn't know it--and I'd been with the company for FIVE years. Granted, I'd only been in that particular domicile for about 7 months. He was an @$$h*1e, but we worked together effectively enough that I never felt like safety--at least the safety of the passengers--was a concern. Now his personal safety crossed my mind a couple of times... but not when the airplane was involved.

(BTW: This guy WAS dealt with. After enough complaints the company called him in and they came to the agreement that it was time for him to take his retirement and go).

Question on my mind is why can't the airlines deal effectively with pilots who get on those lists? Is the shortage of certified pilots that bad?

Pilots can make "no-fly" lists for any number of reasons that don't involve flying skill. It could be a personality clash, or maybe the guy smokes, or maybe some guys don't like him because he's an overbearing democrat or republican, or he's a womanizer, or he doesn't like women, or he crossed a picket line. Hell...I might even be on somebody's no-fly list because I'm too good looking!

So when it comes to the "no fly" list, the airline really can't do anything until actual flying skill or personnel issues become an issue. Flying skill problems generally manifest themselves in training events, so those are usually addressed early in a career. Personnel issues like habitual lateness or no-shows, excessive sick calls, etc, are normally addressed as they become an problem.

[Note about excessive sick calls: I'm not talking about someone who has a legitimate sick issue; I'm talking about the guy who has called in 4 or 5 times in a 90 day period and who, coincidently, commutes and who, coincidentally, has been sick every time the flights he commutes on are full and he couldn't get on. In those cases the company usually demands to see a doctor's note when the guy calls in sick.]

Depending on the size of the airline, the "no-fly" list is handled in different ways. Some may have an official list that is kept, though I've never seen that happen. My company gives first officers the ability to avoid flying with up to 5 captains when they bid their schedules--honestly, as an FO I never had anyone on that list. Often the "no-fly" list is an unpublished list passed among first officers and/or captains and guys will bid away from or trade away trips with certain captains.

If someone has a serious safety issue with another pilot, they can either go to the union's professional standards people or straight to the chief pilot. If the problem becomes a "trend item" then the company has documentation and can take action--either re-training or termination.

At a previous airline I flew for, they hired a lady who had a LOT of time in a 737-200 sim. She did fine in training on the 737-300 (that's all we had). She got through initial operating experience OK, but when she got on line, captains complained about her lack of situational awareness and the fact that she couldn't make the jump from "training" flying to "line" flying (the real world is not always flaps 5 and 170 knots to ten miles and final flaps and target speed at glideslope intercept...). The chief pilot had her fly with EVERY check airman in the company and they all came back with the same conclusion; she was ultimately terminated. You can guess the response: two weeks later her lawyer called the company to file suit for gender discrimination. When he was given the documentation her lawyer told her she didn't have a case and the suit was dropped.

So, in a somewhat "wordy" answer to your question: airlines can and do handle "problem children."

[Evan]

If someone has a serious safety issue with another pilot, they can either go to the union's professional standards people or straight to the chief pilot.

Or mutiny. On short final I vote for mutiny.

Hell...I might even be on somebody's no-fly list because I'm too good looking!

Blue font.

Just kidding.

[3WE]

I'm going to get politically incorrect.

Snyder's post uses the word "she"

Given that Aviation used to be HUGELY a man's world, I wonder if AirTran was trying extra hard to keep a skirt in the cockpit lest they progress to a less balanced workforce...

...to the point of poor performance not being addressed as it would with a guy.

(by the way, the source of Snyder's post is beautiful and I did notice)...

Of course, the more I think about the source and the content, I'm wondering if Snyder was just trying to add some old fashioned levity to the thread.

[EconomyClass]

I'm going to get politically incorrect.

Snyder's post uses the word "she"

Given that Aviation used to be HUGELY a man's world, I wonder if AirTran was trying extra hard to keep a skirt in the cockpit lest they progress to a less balanced workforce...

...to the point of poor performance not being addressed as it would with a guy.

(by the way, the source of Snyder's post is beautiful and I did notice)...

Of course, the more I think about the source and the content, I'm wondering if Snyder was just trying to add some old fashioned levity to the thread.

I've had a couple of good bosses who were women. I've had even more who were overqualified for the b-word. I know that many corporations do want to promote women wherever possible. In doing so, they may choose not to know the arguments against. My wife had a boss who was borderline personality. They accepted college interns to help them get their certification. This borderline supervisor kept one to 2 am in the morning rewriting a work note. The student didn't fear the supervisor because she couldn't be fired, so she reported her. The supervisor was almost immediately gone. If any of her reports had blown the whistle, the employer would have stood behind the supervisor.

So I feel sympathy for passengers who are trapped in a plane flown by a personality problem that gets away with it due to company politics. With the safety of hundreds at stake, politics should have no place. But that's naive to think.

[Evan]

I'm going to get politically incorrect.

Snyder's post uses the word "she"

Given that Aviation used to be HUGELY a man's world, I wonder if AirTran was trying extra hard to keep a skirt in the cockpit lest they progress to a less balanced workforce...

Aviation may no longer be exclusivley a man's world, but last I checked it is still a dress-like-a-man's world. I don't think there's been a skirt in the driver's seat since Scottish Airlines shut down. Are female pilots allowed to wear skirts on duty...maybe show a little leg... or would that just up the accident rate?

Maybe on Loganair.

To your point, I'm willing to bet hiring quotas and the likelihood of discrimination accusations make it harder to pry a woman out of the cockpit. Mostly that's a good thing, considering the low ceiling female pilots operate in, but safety has to always trump political correctness.

[snydersnapshots]

I'm going to get politically incorrect.

Snyder's post uses the word "she"

Given that Aviation used to be HUGELY a man's world, I wonder if AirTran was trying extra hard to keep a skirt in the cockpit lest they progress to a less balanced workforce...

...to the point of poor performance not being addressed as it would with a guy.

The Air Tran pilot was the male new-hire. The captain was the female in the situation. I do know what you're saying and I'll admit that I've seen such things happen in the past. That being said, most of the women I've flown with have been very good pilots. And the biggest bonehead I ever flew with--early in my career--was a white male. That guy was incredibly smart but if you put him in a room with a fire at the back and two open doorways at the front, he'd die in the fire because he couldn't decide which door to go out.

(by the way, the source of Snyder's post is beautiful and I did notice)...

Of course, the more I think about the source and the content, I'm wondering if Snyder was just trying to add some old fashioned levity to the thread.

No, Snyder wasn't trying to inject levity, and I completely understand the questionable source. Dad flew in the Air Force and then with Western and Delta Air Lines and retired in 1995 and he still stays in touch with a lot of guys in the industry. I actually gave some consideration as to whether to post that or not given the somewhat nebulous sourcing. I also gave thought to giving the moderator the option of taking that post out if they felt it would be better for the thread. Now, if the final report comes out and the captain was named "Fred" or "John" then I'll know I screwed up!