Originally posted by BoeingBobby
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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France
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Originally posted by phoneman View PostExplain! A person loves life, but commits suicide? and people he decides to take with him are just collateral damage!
So in a way, they don't care about their own life but they do care about other peoples lives.
Although clearly, that's not the case here.
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Originally posted by DE340 View PostA read a paper on suicides once after a local 9 year old boy committed one. According to it, most often when people who failed a suicide attempt are asked why they tried, it's because in their mind they are troubling for the people around them. They get this idea in their head that by ending their own lives, they are doing other people around them a favor.
So in a way, they don't care about their own life but they do care about other peoples lives.
Although clearly, that's not the case here.
People commits suicide because they feel that they are suffering and they want to finish that suffering, or because they are tired of fighting and give up, or because they think that others are suffering and that their death will relieve that suffering.
This guy had obvious mental problems, but there are mental problems and mental problems. He could be depressive, bipolar, or such. But if he was not straight insane, he knew he was making harm on 149 other persons and hundreds or thousands of relatives and friends, and he knew that they would have not liked it, so he could tell good from bad and chose bad, perhaps in a revenge with the airline and their fellow pilots.
Depressive and bipolar people can finish their own live but don't do the above. If you are depressive or bipolar and kill 150 persons and you understand what you are doing, you are a depressive or bipolar murderer son of a bitch.
I don't know which was the case here (just depressive or bipolar or straight insane), but he was lucid enough to tear the leave note, decide to go to to work anyway, wait for the captain to leave the cockpit, adjust the AP for a descent into the ground, and actively deny the access of the captain to the flight deck. I tend to suspect that he had very clear what he was doing (but I can be wrong).
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by phoneman View PostExplain! A person loves life, but commits suicide? and people he decides to take with him are just collateral damage!
Perhaps this case was the same. I don't know but I tend to think so.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostThere are dozens of ways to commit suicide without killing other 149. And people who commits suicide are the only victim of such an act in 99,999% of the cases. How would you qualify the FedEx pilot that attempted to kill (and failed but left permanently disabled) the 3 flight crew of a DC-10 in an attempt to get control of the plane and crash it against the FedEx headquarters in Memphis, after learning that he was going to be fired? Suicide and collateral damage? No! The damage was intended, not a side effect.
Perhaps this case was the same. I don't know but I tend to think so.
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Originally posted by phoneman View PostAs I originally stated, a person committing suicide and killing innocent people don't care about their own lives and don't care about the other lives they take with them!
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Can anyone tell me if any of the flight crew in these CVR-recordings are "breathing normally"?
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Originally posted by mfeldt View PostCan anyone tell me if any of the flight crew in these CVR-recordings are "breathing normally"? (...)
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Originally posted by phoneman View PostAs I originally stated, a person committing suicide and killing innocent people don't care about their own lives and don't care about the other lives they take with them!
Some people feel bad and kill themselves but have empathy for others.
Some people feel vengeful and kill themselves AND others.
There's the case of the fired mechanic that snuck a gun on and killed the pilots, there's folks who crash their planes in ways that do not harm others.
Then there's the ~20 some 9/11 terrorists who were suicidal pilots and took 3000 people with them.
These different suicidal individuals are all sick but there's some variability in their "caring about others" and thier motivations.
Some may simply dismiss and not care (as you say) about the innocent victims- but others care very much and WANT the folks dead. There's many ways to be crazy.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostSome may simply dismiss and not care (as you say) about the innocent victims- but others care very much and WANT the folks dead. There's many ways to be crazy.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Suicide is not just an act by itself. Suicide is the final act of a chain of events. Suicide is not an act by chance. The “Swiss Cheese Theory” can always be applied in the aviation accidents and may also be applied by psychiatrics in a suicide case.
Mr. Lubitz sent a message. Each particular aspect of his act has a reason. I am not saying he did it deliberately. But there are reasons why he did this way.
Why did he not poison himself, use an overdose of sleeping pills nor hang himself neither jump from a bridge or building? Why not use a gun? There are different meanings if a suicidal shoots his head or heart. Different meanings if he puts himself to sleep or poison himself.
Why did he commit the act during his duty? Why did he commit the act in the cruising part of the flight? Why not just simply compromise the takeoff by acting strange/wrongly from a technical side?
Why not at home? There are different messages if a suicide is committed in the room, living room of bath room. Why not in front of Lufthansa´s headquarters? Or even in a neutral site like the German black forest? Why not did it alone and not taking 149 people with him?
Why not inside the cockpit but after landing and stopping the plane in the finger and waiting for everybody get out?
Why he did not make it in a hotel room while in an overnight rest between flights?
Why Alps? Why not when he flew to BCN ? There are information in the lay media he was planning to marry next year and he bought a car for his girlfriend two weeks ago. Why did he commit suicide now?
Why he did not listen to the claims of his doctor to stay away from his duties (whatever reason it was), why did he not listen to the CPT screaming to open the door nor even listen to the passenger screaming due to the emergency situation? Was he an extremely self-confident guy or just a sociopath that didn´t have feeling for other people?
And we can go on until we fill the gaps in the Swiss Cheese.
Mr. Lubitz was not a criminal that killed 149 people. He probably had a mental condition that led him to kill himself and 149 people and he sent us a message through every aspect of his act that has to be correctly interpreted.
"A young co-pilot that passed through all screening/training phases of his job in a state-of-the-art airline locked himself in a cockpit during the cruising part of the flight preventing any attempt to stop him to reset the plane to crash in the Alps to kill himself and 149 passengers".
If this is correct, there is a message here.
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostOr criminal.
I don't think he was acting out of malice actually, based upon how he has been described. I think he was terrified with nowhere to turn and lost his grip on reality. This could be the result of a combination of social pressures, an undetected personality disorder, poor mental health 'maintenance' in German society (there are legions of untreated crazy-ass Germans walking around in Berlin, i can tell you that) and abominably poor mental health vigilance in the industry.
We've learned long ago that 'insane' people cannot be blamed if they were not capable of understanding their actions or the reality around them. Well, there is a sort of transient version of this that might have taken hold of him.
We will never know. I don't see any value in called it a criminal act, and I think to do so conveniently avoids the questions that need to be answered.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostGabriel, there are states of mind where everything around you seems unreal, as if in a dream. The pilots of FedEx 705 reported feeling this way as they landed, possibly because of the physical trauma or possibly due to the mental stress as they were slipping into shock. Pyschological stress can have the same effect. It's possible that Lubitz was aware of his actions but unable to perceive them or the situation itself as real. If he had survived he might have testified that the entire thing felt like a dream, or he might not even have remembered it. We still know so little about the mind, and we all have a tenuous grip on reality that can be temporarily severed by such things as trauma, stress and depression (to say nothing of schizophenia or serious personality disorders). Most of us keep it together but some lose their grip...
I don't think he was acting out of malice actually, based upon how he has been described. I think he was terrified with nowhere to turn and lost his grip on reality. This could be the result of a combination of social pressures, an undetected personality disorder, poor mental health 'maintenance' in German society (there are legions of untreated crazy-ass Germans walking around in Berlin, i can tell you that) and abominably poor mental health vigilance in the industry.
We've learned long ago that 'insane' people cannot be blamed if they were not capable of understanding their actions or the reality around them. Well, there is a sort of transient version of this that might have taken hold of him.
We will never know. I don't see any value in called it a criminal act, and I think to do so conveniently avoids the questions that need to be answered.
Not simply a criminal neither simply a crazy guy.
Probably a sick person that with his "fifty tons of disorder" may teach the industry a lesson to improve safety
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