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in flight procedure btwn pilots

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  • in flight procedure btwn pilots

    I would like to ask a curious question about pilot/co-pilot handling of the aircraft (eg having seen an air-crash-investigation programme which mentioned who handles the landing and who does the take-off - IE air france crash in toronto).

    I am curious about the procedures of who handles landing/take-off (whether it is split between them or whether the skipper does it all) and also whether most landings are done using the autopilot dialled into the ILS or whether the crew handle and fly the landings manually???

  • #2
    You dont have to post it twice....

    Comment


    • #3
      - Before take off: The captain and the co-pilot helps with preflight checks, and programming stuff in the autopilot

      -Take off: The captain throttles up, and off they go. The co-pilot then helps with flicking a few controls, I forgot which ones.

      -Flick on the auto pilot, and both of them chill~~

      -Descending: The captain commands the co-pilot what to do, i.e. flaps, turning, landing gear

      -Landing: The captain himself aligns the plane with the runway, and he will perform the touchdown.

      -Taxiing: Dunno.

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      • #4
        I suppose that it's up to senior pilot or airliner policy. Co-pilot do fly the aircraft during take-off and landings sometimes. USAirways 1549 that ditched into the Hudson river- co-pilot was flying up until bird strike the captain took over and put the plane in the river.
        If captain is alway flying- how do co-pilot gain experience?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JRE231 View Post
          - Before take off: The captain and the co-pilot helps with preflight checks, and programming stuff in the autopilot

          -Take off: The captain throttles up, and off they go. The co-pilot then helps with flicking a few controls, I forgot which ones.

          -Flick on the auto pilot, and both of them chill~~

          -Descending: The captain commands the co-pilot what to do, i.e. flaps, turning, landing gear

          -Landing: The captain himself aligns the plane with the runway, and he will perform the touchdown.

          -Taxiing: Dunno.

          Wow. Wrong on so many counts. Like all of them.

          Of course, perhaps you were just messing with the OP.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gazpodel View Post
            I would like to ask a curious question about pilot/co-pilot handling of the aircraft (eg having seen an air-crash-investigation programme which mentioned who handles the landing and who does the take-off - IE air france crash in toronto).

            I am curious about the procedures of who handles landing/take-off (whether it is split between them or whether the skipper does it all) and also whether most landings are done using the autopilot dialled into the ILS or whether the crew handle and fly the landings manually???
            On the ground both pilots have their stuff to do. Both do their things. At my airplane 90% of the cockpit preparation is done by me (the FO). The paperwork, the walkaround, the technical stuff is done by the CP.
            During taxi on the MD11 the FO cannot taxi because we don't have a tiller there. So I do the radio, the navigation and the CP is only taxiing. Then it is decided who will be the PF (pilot flying) and PNF (pilot not flying). The PF is ONLY doing things regarding the navigation of the plane. So using the FMS, Autopilot. And that's basically it. The rest is done by the PNF. Talking on the radio, paperwork etc. Observing the autopilot is done all the time by both.
            Then during approach the PF commands to extend the flaps and gear. If I am the PF then I command the captain to set the flaps to 15. Or the other way around if he is PF. After landing the CP takes over control as I cannot taxi due to missing tiller again. So I am back on the radio.
            Hope that helps

            wilco737

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by WILCO737 View Post
              ...a bunch of stuff that just might be right because he's a pilot...
              So what's your favorite way to use the autopilot?

              -As much as possible?
              -Mostly hand fly below 10,000?
              -Depends on your mood?
              -Depends on the availability of crossword puzzles?

              -And how about during moderately-hard IMC where you have a choice- will the autopliot do the ILS, or do you (acknowledging there may be some strict procedures- such as near minimums and CatII and III approaches where you may be required to use the autopilot?)

              Thanks.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                So what's your favorite way to use the autopilot?

                -As much as possible?
                -Mostly hand fly below 10,000?
                -Depends on your mood?
                -Depends on the availability of crossword puzzles?

                -And how about during moderately-hard IMC where you have a choice- will the autopliot do the ILS, or do you (acknowledging there may be some strict procedures- such as near minimums and CatII and III approaches where you may be required to use the autopilot?)

                Thanks.
                Always denpends on the mood. After a long red eye, the autopilot will do a lot of the approach and when the weather is good and not too much traffic then I do more handflying.
                During CAT II and CAT III you need to do autoapproach and with CAT III even an autoland. So no option here. And during CAT II and III the CP is always PF...

                wilco737

                Comment


                • #9
                  It also varies a little between aircraft types.

                  Airbus procedures, for example, define pilot flying and pilot monitoring right from the start. Boeing, however, do it from start of taxi (usually).

                  So, on Boeing fleets, the Captain and F/O have specific preflights to do, and specific roles throughout the pushback and engine start. Taxi time becomes PF/PM (or PNF - pilot not flying, whatever term you want to use). Fortunately my aircraft has a tiller on the F/O side, so the "Pilot Flying" (for the sector) taxis as well.

                  Airbus fleets the pilot flying for the sector has a preflight, and the pilot monitoring has a specific preflight.

                  As to choice - we attempt to split it 50/50, however like Wilco we have restrictions on who must be Pilot Flying for certain things - low visibility takeoffs and landings must be the Captain for example.

                  For the Autopilot - depends on the day, weather etc.

                  I prefer to hand fly departures whenever possible, upto about 10,000ft however if there is significant weather, or a complex ATC environment I'll have the autopilot in straight away. For arrivals, I tend to leave the autopilot in until about 3000ft, and longer if in IMC. Our company policy is that automation should be used to its full ability in IMC... a good policy imho. There are exceptions, but they are due to autopilot limitations surrounding strong crosswinds.

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                  • #10
                    One thing I don't get.

                    Some times, FOs eventually become CP. So they do they first take-off in low visibility and CAT II & III landing not only as PF, but also with the responsibility of being a capt, with noone flown as a FO with the benefit of having a CAP at his side that can give advise ("watch your..."), command a go-arround, or even take over if needed?

                    I know there is simulator training. There is also an IOE (which could lack a CAT II and III approach in actual conditions, or a low visibility take-off). But still.

                    Is it that suddenly a FO becomes a better pilot when neamed captain?

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      One thing I don't get.

                      Some times, FOs eventually become CP. So they do they first take-off in low visibility and CAT II & III landing not only as PF, but also with the responsibility of being a capt, with noone flown as a FO with the benefit of having a CAP at his side that can give advise ("watch your..."), command a go-arround, or even take over if needed?

                      I know there is simulator training. There is also an IOE (which could lack a CAT II and III approach in actual conditions, or a low visibility take-off). But still.

                      Is it that suddenly a FO becomes a better pilot when neamed captain?
                      Yes, but you don't become CP overnight. You get a lot of simulator training and the training on the line as well. At my airline the training to become a captain takes at least 6 months.
                      And initially you are not allowed to fly a CAT III approach. Only after a certain amount of hours you are allowed to do that.
                      A CAT III isn't too difficult. You basically need to observe the autopilot. If the smallest thing doesn't seem right: go around!

                      wilco737

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        Is it that suddenly a FO becomes a better pilot when neamed captain?
                        C'mon Gabe...

                        This is math & logic.....angineering type stuff:

                        It is unavoidable that there is an artificial, "magical" change when someone is declared "qualified", where they were not qualified a second earlier.

                        But...on average your captains are a lot more experienced than FO's and from that basis are more qualified where the FO is not........

                        Now, I have to go shovel some manure.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Gabriel,

                          You are right in some respects, however I fully understand the reasons for the rules.

                          For example, low vis ops are considered one of the more critical things we do, and so, as a passenger, I think its reasonable that the pilot deemed in charge would do the landing/takeoff in those situations.

                          Also, when we do low visibility training, it is all done focussed around those roles. I do not get trained in being the PF for low vis landings. I train to be the PNF - possibly a more demanding role in some respects. The Captain is trained in his PF responsibilities, and assessment of visibility at minima, etc.

                          When you switch to Captain, you do that specific training.

                          Also, if you are the F/O being PF during a Low Vis approach, there would be little point having a Captain to hold your hand so to speak, as the visibility is only assessed by that one pilot, and it needs to be fast. The other pilot is too busy monitoring the instruments to look outside.

                          Just one of those scenarios where there is only time for one person to make an immediate assessment - and that person is deemed to be the Captain.

                          (And, as an aside - low vis ops are actually pretty easy (if not long winded), and are certainly something you can train in the simulator effectively.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by WILCO737 View Post
                            On the ground both pilots have their stuff to do. Both do their things. At my airplane 90% of the cockpit preparation is done by me (the FO). The paperwork, the walkaround, the technical stuff is done by the CP.
                            During taxi on the MD11 the FO cannot taxi because we don't have a tiller there. So I do the radio, the navigation and the CP is only taxiing. Then it is decided who will be the PF (pilot flying) and PNF (pilot not flying).
                            [...]
                            After landing the CP takes over control as I cannot taxi due to missing tiller again. So I am back on the radio.
                            Hope that helps

                            wilco737
                            I hope so, too. After all what you experience when you are at EDDL some times a year, that's it.
                            Btw, I miss this "893 users want to say thank you to wilco737 for this post", a function that exists in some other forums.
                            That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                            Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

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                            • #15
                              Thanks Wilco and MCM.
                              Now I get it (sort of).

                              Oh, and 3WE, good luck with your..., err..., stuff.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment

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