Express Jet passengers wait 6 hours and then some

[C-FMWQ]

My first question was "What the hell was the pilot-in-command doing?"

Very very bad performance on his part. If I was him I would be calling and screaming at someone to have this taken care of. Maybe he was, but why have we not heard this? As PIC he is the only one ultimately responsible for that aircraft.

The pilot can yell all he wants, but if the airport is closed then he can't do very much past yelling .

BTW wouldn't the GTAA ask AC or other airlines which flights are most important and work from that?

ATCO you are right though, the GTAA are the ones that will make the final descsion about the gate assignments and then tell the Ground controllers what to do, but because the pilots hear it from the Ground controllers, they quickly come to the conclusion that the Ground controller decides who goes where in that situation.

Nehal

[Tanner_J]

Considering this thread is talking about the ExpressJet flight (hence the title) it doesn't matter about the GTAA. That's a whole different country.

The airport says yes, the airline says no. The PIC should have done something. Not just sit there in his cramped cockpit. That's rediculous. This is every bit the PIC's fault than the airline. Sure he's listening to the airline, but common sense should take over.

[3WE]

The question is not why this happened.

The question is why it continues to happen.

I will momentarly defend the airline- in that in today's lawsuit crazed world, and tight-wad airlines and so-so ATC, that this kind of thing simply happens from time to time (this is not the first incident of it's kind). No, we won't let expressjet use our gate- we won't accept the lawsuit if someone trips over the jetway joint. They don't pay for the gate, they can't use it.

And in this case- ATC played the horse, carrot, fishing pole game.

I think the airlines are doing better at avoiding the MASS imprisonment, but obviously there can still be a "perfect storm" which loses an RJ on a lonely ramp.

But what defies logic is the inability of the industry to develop some awfully simple plans that after so many hours, you taxi over to a gate (ANYONE'S GATE), and you let the passengers off.

To hell with rescreening- let them off and deal with it....rent a bus if you can't figure out how to let them back in the sky.

I am thinking this plane had it's own stairs (and if not, still say there's no excuse why there aren't stairs sitting there and ONE guy who can get them over to the plane.

So- while I defended this a few paragraphs above- I now switch to rant mode. Airports, airlines, ATC, get your head out of your lawyer's and bean counter's butts, and figure out how this works....it is not rocket science to get the plane over to a terminal (a GA terminal?) and let your passengers off. If it's your cheif competitor- too bad- let them use the ramp. Let your rampies escort them accross the concrete if your gates are full. If it delays your flight- too dang bad. Borrowing from the post above- empower your pilots (with full forgiveness) to use common sense and taxi over some place to free the prisoners.......this does truly stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[atco]

How exactly was ATC at fault in this case?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
ATC has NOTHING at all to do with these operational decisions.

Our job is to get aircraft safely from A to B - and given the lack of mid air collisions in the World's skies despite an exponential rise in traffic numbers over the last 20 years and investment in equipment and personnel that has not kept pace, to describe the service as so-so is a bit contemptuous.
If you think you can do better then get your backside infront of a radar screen, preferably when there are a boatload of CB's around and nobody will fly a heading, everyone wants to deviate in a scattergun way, and see how you handle it.

If Air Traffic Controllers had the same performance standards as politicians, sports stars, executives and managers the skies would be filled with aluminium showers - so for you to use so-so to desribe the effort that is put in on a daily basis is a slap in the face to those who safely handle the tens of thousands of flight movements on a daily basis.

Bean counters don't run the operational aspect of ATC and they never will. While they might well screw with staff on a daily basis, at the radar displays and in the towers safety was, is and always will be the ONLY determining factor for a controller in their decisions. And if keeping things safe means restricitng traffic levels, or putting on a ground stop then so be it - If you don't like it, take a look at the alternative and put your faith in that.

[3WE]

Good reply ATCco....a very governmental, "not my job" response, I'm not lifting a finger to help, so shut up, and pay my salary with your taxes.

Let me be clear that I know ATC did NOT say, "Park there and monitor ground for the next 6 hours, don't call us, we'lll call you".

But, ATC was a factor in this: telling the plane they might be able to depart in a reasonable time...did I count three different times???

Here is a genuine problem with ATC- it is very common for "departure times" to creep incrementally. I know you don't control the weather or the traffic flow and you make decisions on what you know at the time- but you have some responsibility in doling out these incremental 1- and 2-hour delays that grow into 6 hours.

So, accept my apologies for saying "get your head out of the lawyer's butt"- that was more for the Airlines and airports. BUT, be dang sure you are aware of what is going on and doing what you can to help.....and- work with the airport for a policy that you can tell Airline A to go to Airline B's gates- with or without their permission when situations like this arise.

AND, I would expect you to go above and beyond your call of duty and go to the incredible length of saying, "Hey, you have been sitting there 4 hours, do you want to taxi over to the GA ramp and let folks off?....do you want me to call them, call the airline, or here's the Unicom freq, etc. I'm just saying that you are part of the solution and that "not my problem" is dead wrong when you are the one giving out 3 different departure times.....And go to the extra lentgh of telling each other, "hey, this dude has been stranded here 2 hours- do you think this departure slot is questionable? Not just the pure, bureaucratic, procedural "too-damn bad" attitude.

[TeeVee]

"lose an RJ on a lonely ramp"??? now that was funny.

As a million plus miles business traveler, who has thankfully not been trapped on board for more than two hours, let me tell you my plan: Rebellion (unarmed). I fully intend on starting an absolute nightmare onboard if ANY airline for ANY reason traps me on board. I could care less about weather, ATC GTAA FAA NTSB FBI and every other acronym. I am prepared to get arrested and go to jail if it means getting off a grounded plane surrounded by human excrement, with no food or water for countless hours. can you say emergency exit?

now, as far as lawsuits go, i dont think any of them have been successful. I looked into this after the B6 fiasco at JFK which absolutely blew my mind. so far, the only thing i could find where passengers "prevailed" was the NWA suit from 1999, which NWA settled for like 7 million.

there is absolutely no excusefor keeping people onboard. no bus? let them walk to terminal? no jetbridge? use rolling stairs. no gate? let them off wherever. no security for rescreen? keep them in secure area.

an as for free hotel rooms, i don't think that is the issue. people merely expect to be free from stink, starvation, and thirst. terminal floor is fine by me. or at least give me the option of leaving the airport and getting a room.

somewhere in my mind there is a sneaking suspicion that this has everything to do with no one really being in charge.

[3WE]

...somewhere in my mind there is a sneaking suspicion that this has everything to do with no one really being in charge.

BINGO!

And just playing word games in agreement:

No one willing to take charge less they get an ass-chewing from the bean counters, lawyers and MBA desk jockies on potentially affecting the airlines paper-thin profit margins by off-loading the passengers at Bubba's FBO and Aerial-Application Service.

(Relax ATC-dude, again- you are not the major villan here, but, I don't buy the 110% innocence either .)

[3WE]

An update:

I would still like to see the airline crucified. Why in the hell can't their be a common sense policy to empower the pilots to let the passengers off without fearing the wrath of the dispatcher (or genuine disciplinary action).

Oh yeah, I feel so much better that they are "investigating"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090821/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_nightmare_flight

Article:



Pilot pleaded to evacuate stranded passengers

• By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer Joan Lowy, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 17 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The pilot of an airliner stranded overnight on an airport tarmac in Minnesota pleaded unsuccessfully for her 47 passengers to be allowed to get off and go inside a terminal. "We just need to work out some way to get them off ... We can't keep them here any longer," she said.
The Transportation Department on Friday released recordings of the repeated appeals by the pilot and her airline's dispatchers earlier this month while passengers were kept waiting for about six hours in the cramped plane amid crying babies and a smelly toilet before they were allowed to deplane.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said a preliminary investigation by his department found that ExpressJet, the regional carrier which operated Continental Express Flight 2816 for Continental Airlines, wasn't at fault in the tarmac stranding.
Instead, blame for the incident, which has revived calls for greater consumer protections for airline passengers, belongs with Mesaba Airlines, whose representative incorrectly told ExpressJet that the passengers couldn't be allowed inside the terminal because Transportation Security Administration personnel had left for the day, LaHood said.
Actually, security regulations allow for deplaning passengers to be kept in a separate "sterile" area until they are ready to board, he said.
"We have determined that the Express Jet crew was not at fault. In fact, the flight crew repeatedly tried to get permission to deplane the passengers at the airport or obtain a bus for them," LaHood said Friday in a statement.
"There was a complete lack of common sense here," the secretary said. "It's no wonder the flying public is so angry and frustrated."
Mesaba was the only airline with staff still at the Rochester, Minn., airport that Friday night.
The plane left Houston at 9:23 p.m. local time on Aug. 7, but was diverted by thunderstorms to Rochester. Passengers were kept waiting on the tarmac only 50 yards from a terminal. In the morning, they were allowed to deplane. They spent about 2 1/2 hours inside the terminal before reboarding the same plane. They arrived in Minneapolis, their destination, at 9:15 a.m. CDT.
Mesaba is a subsidiary of Northwest Airlines, which merged with Delta Air Lines of Atlanta.
"Delta is working with Mesaba to conduct an internal investigation, continue our full cooperation with the DOT and share all the facts with Continental," Delta CEO Richard Anderson said in a statement.
Continental Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner said he was gratified the Transportation Department recognized the ExpressJet crew's efforts to resolve the situation and was frustrated at their failure to get assistance. Continental Airlines is headquartered in Houston.
The recordings show the captain explaining the situation to an ExpressJet dispatcher, and dispatchers trying to persuade Mesaba officials to allow passengers inside. Passengers from an earlier flight diverted to Rochester had been allowed to deplane and were taken by bus to Minneapolis, about 85 miles away.
However, Mesaba officials said there were no more buses available.
"I can't get her a bus, I can't do anything," said a Mesaba representative.
"You can't do anything for her? OK," asked the ExpressJet dispatcher.
"No."

"Because she was saying nobody was letting her off the airplane, letting the people off the airplane and all that," the dispatcher continued.
"We can't — I mean we were just able to let these guys off. We can't get them a bus. If I can't secure them a bus, I can't have them in a closed airport," the Mesaba representative replied.
In another conversation that began at 4:44 a.m. after the terminal had reopened, a Mesaba manager told an ExpressJet dispatcher that the passengers couldn't deplane because there was no jetbridge available and it was raining.
"I'm trying to find a spot to park them. They're going to have to walk through the rain then once they get off," the manager said.
At 5 a.m., the flight got clearance to takeoff again. But by then, its crew had worked more than the legal limit of hours. Another crew had to be flown in.
It wasn't until 6 a.m. that passengers were allowed to enter the terminal.
Link Christin, who was on the flight, said the incident was a clear example of why more safeguards are necessary for passengers.
"To me, the critical issue is not who's to blame, but to figure out what happened and how it could be prevented in the future," said Christin, a lecturer at William Mitchell College of Law.
More than a week afterward, Christin said he's started to think about "the fact that so many variables were at play with 47, 48 people, two babies, and the variety of potential catastrophes that could have happened."
___ Associated Press writer Nomaan Merchant in Minneapolis contributed to this report

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[Highkeas]

I wonder if the passengers tried calling for help on their cell phones - local TV stations, 911, newspapers, and anybody else they could think off during their time sitting on the plane.

[Evan]

I am prepared to get arrested and go to jail if it means getting off a grounded plane surrounded by human excrement, with no food or water for countless hours. can you say emergency exit?

The conditions in jail would have been more favorable. With a good lawyer, the delay might have been shorter too. We are a revolutionary people when it comes to our liberty, Next time, go with the slide.

[TeeVee]

The conditions in jail would have been more favorable. With a good lawyer, the delay might have been shorter too. We are a revolutionary people when it comes to our liberty, Next time, go with the slide.

true. the only time i was in jail was back about 20 years ago when i was the guest of the scarsdale police for the night. i gotta tell ya that my accommodations were clean and somewhat comfortable. breakfast was wonderful...

all that aside, i aint kiddin. i will start a rebellion on board and force them to let us disembark or have the police remove me. either way, i'll be free! (from the aluminum tube at least!)

[AA 1818]

Actually, security regulations allow for deplaning passengers to be kept in a separate "sterile" area until they are ready to board, he said.
"We have determined that the Express Jet crew was not at fault. In fact, the flight crew repeatedly tried to get permission to deplane the passengers at the airport or obtain a bus for them," LaHood said Friday in a statement.

Exactly what I was thinking. When reading this thread earlier (and also reading the front page of the USA Today) I asked myself at least 4 times why would TSA not being there affect anything seeing that the passengers would have alreadey entered a 'screened'/sterile area by entereing the concourse. Letting them back to said concourse would have still kept them in a sterile area. There would be no need for rescreening. Are there other regualtions/rules that come into play (which caused the Mesaba agents) to become confused? I know that common sense is not ever common, but when such a blatant lapse in judgement occurs - there must be some confusion. What could have caused the confusion?

[AA 1818]

The conditions in jail would have been more favorable.

At least at prision - the prisioner/toilet ratio is lower...

[AA 1818]

I am prepared to get arrested and go to jail if it means getting off a grounded plane surrounded by human excrement, with no food or water for countless hours. can you say emergency exit?

Legally speaking, what would be the laws broken by activating the emergency exit? Is there a recommended fine and/or prision time?

Anyway - a good attorney would have argued mental anguish, and or temporary insanity, and would have probably gotten you a settlement in the civil case.

What would have been another way to effect the same reaction? Would being a loud and rowdy passenger be cause enough to deplane you? Would the flight crew have worked along with it?