Express Jet passengers wait 6 hours and then some

[Passion for flying]

Apparently DOT has looked at the facts and published a verdict, quoted HERE:

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/travel/minnesota/53940112.html

Maybe somebody at MESABA tried to be smart an deal a blow to the competitor?

They may have to think again. The DOT statement should provide good enough material to start a lawsuit, if any of the passengers are willing.

[Evan]

true. the only time i was in jail was back about 20 years ago when i was the guest of the scarsdale police for the night. i gotta tell ya that my accommodations were clean and somewhat comfortable. breakfast was wonderful...

all that aside, i aint kiddin. i will start a rebellion on board and force them to let us disembark or have the police remove me. either way, i'll be free! (from the aluminum tube at least!)

Well, if you are going to extremes, fake a heart attack instead. They will have to let you off and provide an ambulance. The examining physician will diagnose it as an anxiety attack. There is no medical means to disprove an anxiety attack. And I'd be very surprised if the airline didn't extend a generous offer to pick up a traumatized passenger's expenses for the evening.

[DeltaFlyer]

Exactly what I was thinking. When reading this thread earlier (and also reading the front page of the USA Today) I asked myself at least 4 times why would TSA not being there affect anything seeing that the passengers would have alreadey entered a 'screened'/sterile area by entereing the concourse. Letting them back to said concourse would have still kept them in a sterile area. There would be no need for rescreening. Are there other regualtions/rules that come into play (which caused the Mesaba agents) to become confused? I know that common sense is not ever common, but when such a blatant lapse in judgement occurs - there must be some confusion. What could have caused the confusion?

Rochester Airport is not a 24hr airport, so someone with a local SIDA badge would have to be in the concourse with the passengers at all times...Mesaba, according to other news reports, had offered space on their bus to MSP to the CO folks before the bus left - CO refused thinking the plane would be on its way shortly, and it wasnt - so had Mesaba pulled the aircraft up to the gate and allowed the passengers to deplane they would have had to have someone stay overnight and babysit the crew and passengers till it was cleared for reboarding...I know I would have loved that double time and a half....

I had an occurrence last year with a Spirit plane at PBI because FLL was closed for weather, it was about 1am and I was the only Delta person there - I was finishing up some paperwork and got a call from Spirit Dispatch in FLL telling me I had a plane on the ground that was diverted and needed to pull into a gate...I tried to nicely explain to the guy that I was the only one there and would not be able to park the plane without a ground crew nor did I have a gate avail...we had 4 gates and 5 planes on the ground...and no pushback bar for the airbus was immediately avail...I suggested they call jetBlue to assist since they were still operating and had the crew and the equipment...the dispatcher in a rude tone said he would call me back - he did about 10minutes later saying the airport authority has authorized the use of a spare gate, I said that was great, is jetBlue assisting, he said "no, You are and if you dont I am calling the news media!!" I laffed and explained that the phone he was calling on was being recorded and I would gladly play it to the media so they could hear that I was not refusing to assist, I just was not in a position too...he hung up on me...when I left about 30minutes later the plane was in the boneyard being refueled there...

I feel sorry for those folks left on the plane, I have been stranded lots of times at JFK and LGA awaiting takeoff or an open gate so I know sort of what they went thru...

[3WE]

I enjoyed your post Delta Flyer- I respect that "right now" these kinds of things can happen.

But I kick, scream and yell that your management (not you) and other airlines management are worthless pieces of crap for not having common-sense plans for times like this.

So your gates are full- Well there are steps. Park the plane 200 feet away, pull up the some steps, you open the door at the jet bridge and coordinate with the cabin crew and pilots to safely escort the passengers accross the ramp....then someone doubles back with a wheel chair. This happens all the time with a number of commuter operations!

While the dispatcher's behavior (in your story and this story) is not excusable, your airline should expect you to go over and help in whatever capacity you can.

And in your comments I don't see where you offered to do anything??? Not your airline, not your job huh? So when YOUR airline strands someone, I hope you get tons of bad press! That's some of the problem. No you can't magically make a ground crew and a tow bar appear, but you could enact "the airport's stranded airplane plan" and volunteer to go help the other airline with off-loading.

Sadly, no one has a crystal ball- and the "weather trap" happens. I had ACT dude worked up several posts ago, but again, I don't think it would kill the ground controller (or the only controller left) to call Bob's aerial application service and ask if they'd unlock the gate and let folks catch taxi cabs or something...hell, give the controller a master key, have him call center to hold anyone coming in and let the airliner talk to any VFR dude who pops up on the frequency....

It can't be that damn hard to pull the plug after 3 hours and get folks off a plane- it takes the airlines to give a crap, have a two hour discussion, put a set of steps or two at the airport, coordinate with ATC or the FBO or someone to make the steps available and an awfully simple plan on what happens when the competitors gates are full.

No security- your passengers will scatter like sheep? Too bad- at that point it doesn't matter any more. Let them go, get the pilots and the FA's unloading suitcases, and start sending refunds and vouchers.

It ain't rocket science!

[DeltaFlyer]

Its not rocket science, your right, but being an armchair observer is alot different then being on the front line and dealing with it as it is happening...

I didnt offer any assistance because I was not in the position to offer assistance - there are times when you can help and you do, and there are times when you can't....there were some days I had PBI bound Delta planes holding back while a plane for FLL or MIA was gassing up at one of our gates..somedays it works out, that particular night it didnt...so Spirit did just what you suggested which was gas up in the middle of the ramp, instead of pulling into a jetBlue gate and deplaning like I had suggested...whether they called jetBlue and they refused I dont know...

No security or someone to babysit, no one in the concourse, that is a TSA directive, you cannot leave passengers unattended in the concourse...

I am no longer with Delta, I left last October during the leave packages because I didnt like the way the industry was headed, I hope someday to return but in the meantime I am enjoying my time in a new industry. While at Delta, and then at Air Canada for last season I was constantly being looked up by the FF's because they knew if it could get done, I would do it...I still take pride in the fact that I do go above and beyond, when I can, and I am honest when I can't...

[TeeVee]

Legally speaking, what would be the laws broken by activating the emergency exit? Is there a recommended fine and/or prision time?

Probably "interfering with flight crew" the standard post 9-11 catch all provision that everyone who farts on a plane gets charged with.

Anyway - a good attorney would have argued mental anguish, and or temporary insanity, and would have probably gotten you a settlement in the civil case.

I doubt it. I am a good attorney and I would not take that case.

What would have been another way to effect the same reaction? Would being a loud and rowdy passenger be cause enough to deplane you? Would the flight crew have worked along with it?

Again, you would probably be charged with the aforementioned law. while i have not done extensive research i believe the only punishment is a fine.

49 USCS § 46318
§ 46318. Interference with cabin or flight crew

(a) General rule. An individual who physically assaults or threatens to physically assault a member of the flight crew or cabin crew of a civil aircraft or any other individual on the aircraft, or takes any action that poses an imminent threat to the safety of the aircraft or other individuals on the aircraft is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $ 25,000.

[AA 1818]

Just an update; DOT has assessed a fine of $100,000 to Express Jet and a futher $75,000 to Mesaba.

Continental spokeswoman Mary Clark says her airline agreed to the Transportation Department's findings in the Rochester incident rather than spend money on lawyers to fight them.

During the delay in Rochester, Clark says, ExpressJet "worked throughout the night to safely deplane the customers at the earliest possible time, yet was unable to because the ground handler failed to provide reasonable assistance and accurate information."

John Spanjers, president of Mesaba Airlines, says, "Mesaba continues to feel it operated in good faith by providing voluntary ground-handling assistance to ExpressJet during this delay."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/usaedi..._NU.htm?csp=34

A hefty fine, but more than likely the tip of the iceberg as we are sure to see passenger lawsuits come to follow.

[ced ampo]

For instance. On a flight that I took from YYZ-LGA there was a person siting infront of me complaining when we had a 5 minute delay on the ground, because of ATC in New York. This individual kept on complaining that the airline was doing something and demanded that he was given a free meal for the delay. When that request was denied he kept on hasseling the Flight Attendant for various reasons.

Nehal

Tell him to NEVER fly from JFK if he'll get angry like that...

[Opsguy]

I'm an Ops Supervisor at RFD, which is the major diversion airport for ORD. We have 23 airlines that use us for diversions including international carriers such as Air France, Aer Lingus, Cathay Pacific, Iberia, Swiss International etc. Most of the diverted flights are from UAL and AAL. Before the economic slump we would see upwards of 100 diverted flights a year.

Many times the decision not to deplane is the Captains. We have offered on long waits to reopen the terminal for as many of the diverted flights as we have gate space for. If it is late and TSA has left for the night, the pax can be held in the secure area of the departure lounges and still re boarded without screening. In many cases the flights Captain has opted to keep everyone on board, so when they receive their clearance back to ORD all they have to do is power up and leave.

However, in the past year or so we have had many more flights request to deplane their pax. We have also seen Captains order food for the pax. This summer we had a UA flight diverted from LAX. The Capt. called and asked if there was any place close to order pizza. He placed an order for 28 pizzas for his pax. It was delivered to the airport and we delivered to the aircraft.

Several of the previous responses have accused lazy airport operators of not opening the terminal. In the case of many medium size airports such as Rochester, there are no airport employees during the overnight hours. Others do not have a 24 hour tower. We our fortunate in having a 24 hour tower and 24/7 Ops coverage. Also in our case, we only have five jet bridges and have had as many as 19 diverted flights on the ground at one time. However, we go out of our way to try to offer assistance. We have called our airport cafe operator back in for diverted flights, have delivered soft drinks from our caterer etc.

I agree that the whole issue of holding pax on diverted flights needs to be thorougly studied. Further, the airports that handle diverted flights also need to step up to the plate and assist wherever possible. Most of the airlines that divert here don't use our airport for regular service. But we look at their passengers the same as we would our own. We will go out of our way to try to assist. We have restocked aircraft, made boarding announcements, ordered buses etc. The only reimbursement we get is landing fees ( On one occasion I got 2 dozen Chocolate Chip Cookies from Midwest Airlines for handling four of their flights without notice at 0100).....but the pax on board deserve better than to be stuck in the corner of the tarmac and forgot about.

[Tanner_J]

Nice to see something nice happens at RFD...lived 7 years in that dump when I was younger.

Keep doing the good work, would love to see the airport busy during the day for a change rather than at night.

[MCM]

Very very bad performance on his part. If I was him I would be calling and screaming at someone to have this taken care of. Maybe he was, but why have we not heard this? As PIC he is the only one ultimately responsible for that aircraft.

Tanner, you've clearly never been a crewmember faced with this situation. I have.

The situation varies dramatically depending on the airport/airline concerned, but just "getting the passengers off" isn't as easy an option as it sounds. Is there a gate available? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If all the gates have an aircraft at them, what would you like me to do? I can shout and scream and demand stairs, busses, anything... but I can't go and drive them myself. How about inside the terminal? Is it open 24hrs? Again, same deal... I can't go and unlock the terminal and let people in, just as I can't drive the aerobridge myself.

I'm sure the Pilot in Command wanted to be in the aircraft just as little as everyone else, but the crew are stuck there too. I'm sure the crew would have been involved in the process, but again, there is not that much he can do.

Additionally, its not always a clear cut decision. If you know you're going to have a 6 hour delay, then its an easy decision to get everyone off. If, however, you are waiting maybe for 30mins, maybe an hour to get clearance, then you know that getting pax off will cause more problems than it solves.

It is not an easy situation, and while I agree the airlines should be looking for better ways to manage the situation (such as requiring them to have more support at alternate airports), its pointless just blaming people who have probably the least control of everyone.

[ptbodale]

BINGO!


No one willing to take charge less they get an ass-chewing from the bean counters, lawyers and MBA desk jockies

A lot of truth in that!