Air France 447 - On topic only!

[Harding]

I wouldn't be at all offended if the moderators just wiped out everything from post 1299 on.

Except this one.

Can I ask a point of protocol here? In a two man crew, captain in left seat, F/O in right, and the F/O is the PF. Clearly the captain is still the captain and can take control (through defined procedures) at any time. (As Sully did on US1549.) I get that. But what about on AF447? The captain was away from the flight deck, and as I understand it, the most junior F/O, in the right seat, was the PF. Here's my question: When the captain is away from the flight deck does one of the others assume the role of captain until his return? If so, does that role fall to the PF, the "guy who happens to be in the left seat" or the most senior person there? Could the more senior F/O in the left seat have taken control, again through those defined procedures?

Its a really interesting question.

[Jpmkam]

Can I ask a point of protocol here? In a two man crew, captain in left seat, F/O in right, and the F/O is the PF. Clearly the captain is still the captain and can take control (through defined procedures) at any time. (As Sully did on US1549.) I get that. But what about on AF447? The captain was away from the flight deck, and as I understand it, the most junior F/O, in the right seat, was the PF. Here's my question: When the captain is away from the flight deck does one of the others assume the role of captain until his return? If so, does that role fall to the PF, the "guy who happens to be in the left seat" or the most senior person there? Could the more senior F/O in the left seat have taken control, again through those defined procedures?

Anyway care to answer that?

[BoeingBobby]

Anyway care to answer that?

I am a 200 Captain and have no experience on the 2 pilot crewed airplanes, so I called one of our 400 Captains to find out the protocol here at Atlas.

When a 2 pilot crewed aircraft is dispatched with a crew of 1 Captain and 2 First officers and the Captain leaves the cockpit to take rest and he is the PF, the Captain will designate one of the First Officers as the PF. This will be logged on the OFP with the time of transfer, and a verbal briefing of what is happening at the moment and what is expected ahead is done. It may or may not be the senior F/O. The same holds true if one of the F/O’s is the PF on the leg. Any time the PF leaves the cockpit for a rest period or returns from one to resume the PF duties, a verbal briefing and an annotation on the OFP is made. This is also the case if more than 1 Captain's are in the crew, which is often the way it happens here at Atlas. I would also like to point out that it has nothing to do with the seat location. The more senior F/O may be the PF and in the right seat, the Captain leaves for a rest period and the junior F/O will now be in the left seat.

Now to try and answer the other part of the question, at anytime during a flight that one crewmember feels that the PF is having trouble, has become incapacitated, etc. the other crewmember is obligated to state aloud “I have the aircraft” and take control of the airplane. The other crewmember if not incapacitated is to reply, “You have the aircraft”.

I hope this answers the question that you have and again this may be something that varies slightly with different airlines.

[EconomyClass]

A more deadly incident that I think makes an interesting comparison given where it happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...nes_Flight_587

(That is, not in a tropical zone with storms reaching to 40,000 feet)

[MCM]

In my outfit the situation is similar to the one described by BoeingBobby, although it is a relatively rare occurrance.

You would normally expect the F/O who occupies the F/O's seat for takeoff and landing to be the "primary" F/O, who would most likely be PF for the time the captain is off, and would assume the command responsibility. However, there is no strict requirement for that to be the case, and some airlines, which run with specific relief crew, will have it all predesignated as to who is the relief and who is the actual crew.

As BB notes - even if the Captain is present on the flight deck, if a pilot is having difficulty controlling the aircraft or is clearly not able to cope, the other pilot should assist him as required, and that may involve taking over. I won't go into the Authority Gradient issues around that, of which I know the regulars here are more than up to date on. I do not imagine them to be relevant to this particular accident.

However, to take over the controls from another pilot, even if you are the Captain, you need to be very sure that you are correct, and that you are not the one that is disoriented while the other pilot performs correctly.

[Jpmkam]

Anyway care to answer that?

Thanks guys.

[ca787546]

Yes, it is. I'm saying that it appears that doctor killed the patient, using your analogy. BUt not with malice; I would describe this as malpractice, rather than homicide.

ca787546, everything you say up there is clear to me. Of course the FAA and the BEA and all the CAA's of the world and all the world's governments are seething masses of bureaucracy and everything takes an era to filter through it all. And yes, many proposals need to be tested repeatedly before we know if they are the right ones. I understand all of that.

But that does not apply to these items:

-- Emergency descent initiation
-- First reaction, in case of an unreliable speed indication
-- Loss of braking
-- Windshear (reactive and predictive)
-- EGPWS and GPWS
-- TCAS
-- Approach to stall

Six scenarios that every pilot must be well trained and prepared for, instinctively, on type, and can stabilize from memory alone. That is not subject to debate. The memory items for these procedures already exist, although they may need to be revised (the last item, in red, is not currently listed as an AIrbus memory item, which is disturbing) . So my question remains, why are these things not being taught effectively, or more to the point, why are the CAA's not requiring this and verifying compliance? You can't tell me the system prevents this, and you can't tell me that we have to accept less than 100% compliance on this. If the CAA system is not airworthy, we need to ground it and upgrade some parts.

I actually think they should train airbus pilots on stall recovery, not just approach to stall. That I agree with. The reason most CAAs don't require it goes a long way. You'd have to talk to a bunch of engineers, lawyers, mathematicians, and then come up with the answer.

[ca787546]

I doubt BoeingBobby is old enough to order a beer.

Personally, I think I'd enjoy having a few brews with Mr. BoeingBobby! It's always good to chat with a good ol' experienced pilot, one learns a lot. (BTW, please take no offence to the "ol'" part! Cheers

[Gabriel]

ca787546,

Are you checking your PMs?
I've sent you two in the last two weeks, including an answer to some question you had about a rare airline called "Southern Beer"

(apologies to the rest of the forum, I didn't know another means to contact him)

[Evan]

In my outfit the situation is similar to the one described by BoeingBobby, although it is a relatively rare occurrance.

You would normally expect the F/O who occupies the F/O's seat for takeoff and landing to be the "primary" F/O, who would most likely be PF for the time the captain is off, and would assume the command responsibility. However, there is no strict requirement for that to be the case, and some airlines, which run with specific relief crew, will have it all predesignated as to who is the relief and who is the actual crew.

As BB notes - even if the Captain is present on the flight deck, if a pilot is having difficulty controlling the aircraft or is clearly not able to cope, the other pilot should assist him as required, and that may involve taking over. I won't go into the Authority Gradient issues around that, of which I know the regulars here are more than up to date on. I do not imagine them to be relevant to this particular accident.

However, to take over the controls from another pilot, even if you are the Captain, you need to be very sure that you are correct, and that you are not the one that is disoriented while the other pilot performs correctly.

Has the BEA confirmed which pilot was PF? I have been assuming that the most senior F/O would be relieving the Capt in the right seat, and the least experienced pilot was PF, but maybe this is not so?

If the senior F/O was in the left seat, it would make more sense to me that the right hand pilot did not intervene as the PF maintained pitch inputs. Cockpit gradient.

At 2 h 13 min 32, the PF said "we’re going to arrive at level one hundred". About fifteen seconds later, simultaneous inputs by both pilots on the sidesticks were recorded and the PF said "go ahead you have the controls".

This indicates a breakdown in CRM. The PNF is supposed to call "I have the aircraft (or something akin to this in Française)" The PF has to release his sidestick at this point for the PNF to have full authority. Otherwise the system will calculate both inputs.

On the Airbus, there is a sidestick priority indicator for each pilot on the glareshield panel. Red means the associated sidestick is deactivated and the other pilot has the airplane. Either pilot can take control from the other by pushing the priority button on the sidestick itself, but if the opposing pilot does not release the stick to neutral, an aural warning DUAL INPUT will sound and the indicators will show green. In this case, if both pilots are trying to fly the plane simultaneously, both sidestick inputs are algebraically combined up to single sidestick deflection limitations, even if they are opposing commands.

[3WE]

And by the way FoF, I would like to know what your qualifications are.

You and the other couple of daily posters. Evan, Gabriel?

Any one of the 3 of you have any heavy time? ATP? Type ratings in anything? Five or six hundred Atlantic and or Pacific crossings in your logbook?

Ever have a good sniff of smoke from 2 or 4 radial engines starting @ 0530? Ever fly anything with a tail wheel?

No I didn't think so.

Dude...you're a bit bipolar here. One minute you bash folks who can't hand fly an approach and landing and say that it's just a big 172...next minute, folks with 172 time and zero experience with autopilots have zero redeeming value.

[guamainiac]

BB says he can recover from a 3 spin stall in a "47-deuce" from the right seat and do it left handed with his other hand on his real joy stick.

[guamainiac]

With a full load of ice and a 6-pack under his belt.

He doesn't often drink and fly but when he does ... it's Dos Equis.



lighten up cowboy ..

[3WE]

So here's the irony for Boring Booby:

Anyone can go to MSFS and fly a classic tail-dragging steam-gauge DC3.

And then go fly a glass cockpit deal with auto everything and a moving map.

I'm not saying that qualifies you for anything, but it can give you an appreciation that it is easier for pilots today...

Next twist:

Is there a serious bad-ass EXCELLENT safety record for electronic RJ's?...I think there is.

Are there still some damn interesting crashes where some blame goes on pilots who's entire career has been automated glass and they seemingly lacked some classic airmanship knowledge?...that's true too.

[Myndee]

Hey guys, this is a little OT but I thought that you would want to know since I talked about it for so long.
I have been here in SFO for over a week now. Flew in on an A320. I actually have to say that it was a very nice flight. I get to do it three more times in the next ten days!
All is well here with the new airline. They treat us very well. It's a great place to work and I am happy.

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