777 Crash and Fire at SFO

[Gabriel]

A CAPTAIN with 45 hours on type in the left seat (??) with 291 passengers aboard?!!!

That's pretty usual. There are two typical ways to get to the left seat in a plane: from the right seat in the same plane or from a left seat in another plane.

Of course, whhether you get into a new seat (left or right) you'll have an instructor or similar at your side who will have PIC authority.

A captain under training on the left seat + a captain giving training on the right seat = the captain giving training is PIC (although, for training purposes, he can pretend he isn't and ask the "student" to act as if he was the PIC).

[TeeVee]

This testimony opens a new can of worms. Comments inside brackets are mine:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/NTSB-Asiana-captain-worried-about-visual-landing-5053762.php

At least, not being honest is not a thing for which this captain can be blamed.

no offense taken Gabriel. actually, i disagree with the lawyer. being stressed and nervous is not a bad thing. it is a good thing if for no other reason than it is better than being cocky and over-assured. now, how the individual deals with such feelings is a different story.

not that it's completely analogous, but i often get nervous enduro riding in new areas even though i know that i'm capable of handling pretty rough terrain and won't die if i crash. nerves remind you you are not invincible.

having said all that, i do agree that this accident was caused by a cultural problem that is not new and not unique to asiana or asia for that matter. and the cultural problem does not stem from the airline culture. rather, it stems from the culture of the geographic area. i doubt training is going to totally rid someone of what has been engrained in her/him since birth.

[Evan]

That's pretty usual. There are two typical ways to get to the left seat in a plane: from the right seat in the same plane or from a left seat in another plane.

I have to question the wisdom of that in an age where aircraft are highly automated and systems are dissimilar...

Can't a transitioning captain be required to fly as F/O for a reasonable amount of time on type before training as captain? So many accidents are happening from a lack of on-type systems knowledge:

...I set FLCH at 0', then disengaged the A/P, why doesn't the autothrust kick in at Vref? (Captain in training, PF)

...we'll just shoot the approach on autothrottle with our one remaining radio altimeter (Captain in training, PF, currently deceased).

...speeds reference switch? What's that? (captain, PIC, currently deceased)

...why isn't it turning? (captain, PIC, after repeatedly not pulling the heading selection knob to engage selected guidance, currently deceased)

...what's it doing now? (captain, PIC)

and so on...

[Gabriel]

no offense taken Gabriel. actually, i disagree with the lawyer. being stressed and nervous is not a bad thing. it is a good thing if for no other reason than it is better than being cocky and over-assured. now, how the individual deals with such feelings is a different story.

not that it's completely analogous, but i often get nervous enduro riding in new areas even though i know that i'm capable of handling pretty rough terrain and won't die if i crash. nerves remind you you are not invincible.

Tee Vee, please.

He was nervous not becuase he was doing aerobatics.
He got nervous because he was going to have to hand-fly an airplane with visual reference to the ground, a long stright in visual approach in daylight with clear skies, unlimited visibility, little wind, and a runway that was much longer than needed.

That's ok for a PPL student in his first solo flight. But not for a 777 captain.

[Gabriel]

I have to question the wisdom of that in an age where aircraft are highly automated and systems are dissimilar...

Well, a captain going to captain in another plane has to learn all the systems. A flight officer moving to captain in the same plane has to learn leadership, judegement, decision making... Both models have theyr strong and weak points.

Can't a transitioning captain be required to fly as F/O for a reasonable amount of time on type before training as captain?

What would be the advantage? They are sort of doing that, but from the left seat.

Remember, in this flight in the right seat there was a captain giving training and who had full PIC authority.

[Highkeas]

........ being stressed and nervous is not a bad thing. it is a good thing if for no other reason than it is better than being cocky and over-assured. now, how the individual deals with such feelings is a different story.
........................

I agree to some extent however effectiveness starts to decline above a certain stress level. A good explanation is found in Dhillon's book "Introduction to Human Reliability".

[Evan]

Remember, in this flight in the right seat there was a captain giving training and who had full PIC authority.

Where? I missed that part.

The advantage is psychological. This issue is cockpit gradient, as we've seen here. The left seat should be reserved for pilots with a certain feel and familiarity with the aircraft, and you should have to earn that seat with hours on-type, IMHO.

The Colgan investigation revealed a great example of the danger when F/O Rebecca Shaw was laughing at how Captains transitioning from the SAAB to the Q400 hydraulic elevator would lurch the thing around as PIC. She, a 24 y/o first officer, had better piloting skills for that aircraft then they did. Would she have stalled the aircraft that day...?

[TeeVee]

Tee Vee, please.

He was nervous not becuase he was doing aerobatics.
He got nervous because he was going to have to hand-fly an airplane with visual reference to the ground, a long stright in visual approach in daylight with clear skies, unlimited visibility, little wind, and a runway that was much longer than needed.

That's ok for a PPL student in his first solo flight. But not for a 777 captain.

yes, he was doing something he had done perhaps thousands of times before but in different aircraft. similarly, when i enduro ride, i'm doing the same thing i've done before perhaps in 100's of different places.

i'm not defending the pilot. i'm commenting on the lawyer's (imo) dumb/ill-informed remark.

lemme give you another analogy: i've been in front of juries countless times. yet, i still get a little nervous. in preparing for a trial, something ive also done countless times, i often/usually get stressed. why? who knows. maybe it keeps me on my toes.

another thing to consider is the language. allegedly, this was a quote, right? well how good were this guy's english skills? what is the korean equivalent and does it translate perfectly. you know full well that many sayings and words in spanish do not translate well into english and certainly vice-versa.

[TeeVee]

This issue is cockpit gradient, as we've seen here. The left seat should be reserved for pilots with a certain feel and familiarity with the aircraft, and you should have to earn that seat with hours on-type, IMHO.

i agree with you. however, i'm fairly certain that every pilots' union on the planet would string you up for even suggesting that.

[guamainiac]

Long, lazy straight in final and he was stressed? A cross wind would have had him wetting his pants.

Who is by the regulations the PIC, the instructor. What was he doing? If anything the instructor should have been alert enough to catch the problems shouldn't he. He, if anyone should be given the royal boot!

[3WE]

Long, lazy straight in final and he was stressed? A cross wind would have had him wetting his pants......

Indeed

A long final is easy.

Watching the asi is easy and expected

Flaring and a giving the customers a complaint- free touchdown is the challenging skill and is normally done with little electronic guidance.

[EconomyClass]

When I read the story in the newspaper today, I wondered if the pilots had been legally coached. I mean, I don't know how many successful Asian pilots there are in the world, but surely this self-censorship due to hierarchy can't be that important. However, a lawyer might say "The whole world has this image of Asians kowtowing to superiors, lets use this fraudulent stereotype to our advantage". I don't think Asian pilots are kamikazes, willing to die in a fiery crash rather than yell "We're too slow, GO AROUND!" Nor do I buy the notion that a more experienced Asian will freeze up and be so driven by the need to be "right" as to ignore it. If anything in this argument were true, I'd never consider a ticket on an Asian airline. But I just don't believe it. I just call it CYA. After all, the one thing NTSB will never be able to know is what was in the minds of a silent member of the crew. They can claim anything at all. If Asiana has lawyers dictating their responses, then NTSB will just have to decide if they are buying the story. If they say "more training is needed", that may be invalidated by the fact that the pilots are already trained enough and just negligent.

[Gabriel]

The CVR transcript:

http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-55499%2F55433%2F544904.pdf

We are too high.
Watch your sink rate.
Now too low.
Speed, speed!
[stickshaker]
Go around!
Ouch!

[guamainiac]

EcpomomyClass, I spent a good part of my life in a very Japanese culture.

It is not an unfounded stereotype.

[Highkeas]

.......... I wondered if the pilots had been legally coached. ................

Yesterday I watched the hearings for several minutes; the time when the chief pilot and the head of training were being questioned. As I watched and listened to them answer questions that was my impression.