Malaysia T7 down!!

[tsv]

This is what happens when you give SA-11's to a bunch of separatist halfwits. Regardless of who actually shot this a/c down, Putin is ultimately to blame for arming and emboldening these total fucking untrained idiots.

280 pax, many probably bound for holidays. This is too horrible to even think about.

Or to the US Military - another example of total fucking untrained idiots.

[Jpmkam]

Black boxes

CNN report on black boxes:

Where are the black boxes?

Ukraine claims the aircraft's black boxes have been sent to Russia along with the missile launcher used to target MH17, a news report says.

Ukraine's Interfax news agency quotes Interior Ministry adviser Anton Geraschenko as saying that Ukrainian intelligence sources say the Buk launcher and data recorders were handed over to Russian agents across the border at a checkpoint near Luhansk overnight.

The flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder -- together known as the flight's black boxes -- would be important to the investigation of exactly what happened to the plane.

[retox]

We know that since the beginning of the fighting in Ukraine, 10 aircraft (five*Mi-24 Hind, two*Mi-8 Hip helicopters, one An-2, one*An-30*and the Il-76 at Luhansk) have been shot down by the local militia using portable surface-to-air missile systems.

And there were airlines prudent enough to avoid this area: "Both Korean Air Lines and Asiana Airlines have confirmed that they have not flown planes through Ukrainian airspace since March 3.“We detoured our flight because of political instability there,” said Lee Hyo-min, a spokeswoman at Asiana, which had been flying a cargo plane through Ukrainian airspace once a week from Brussels to Incheon, South Korea, until that point.Korean Air Lines had been sending 42 passenger and cargo flights per month through Ukrainian airspace, but those flights had been rerouted, beginning on March 3, company officials said." (Source http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/19..._r=1&referrer= )

I just don't see a "hindsight " argument being valid here. Basically you have a broke airline that lost $1.3B US in the last 3 years. They've been hemorrhaging money since MH340 and they've responded by lowering prices and lowering costs - literally taking shortcuts.

Typical mismanaged business death spiral.

[retox]

CNN report on black boxes:

What comes next; in Russian it's called "Maskerova".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskirovka

[sjwk]

Strongly disagree! The FAA has not allowed US airlines there for 3 months.

Just as a follow-up to this, apparently the FAA no-fly zone created in April only covered the Crimea region of Ukraine, and adjacent coastal areas, not the Eastern Ukraine region. The FAA only prohibited flights over the area where this accident occurred yesterday, after the event.

Source: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...6655&cid=TW233

I'm not commenting on whether it was sensible or not to fly over the area (with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, clearly it wasn't), just on whether there was instruction not to do so.

[retox]

Just as a follow-up to this, apparently the FAA no-fly zone created in April only covered the Crimea region of Ukraine, and adjacent coastal areas, not the Eastern Ukraine region. The FAA only prohibited flights over the area where this accident occurred yesterday, after the event.

Source: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...6655&cid=TW233

I'm not commenting on whether it was sensible or not to fly over the area (with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, clearly it wasn't), just on whether there was instruction not to do so.

Yes, unfortunately that bit of misinformation was (and still is) being spread by major news organizations. CBS, for example, just posted “The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has barred U.S. Airlines from flying over this area for some time.”

Impossible at this point to know if these are genuine there is now audio of the rebels in the moments after the crash discussing what they did.

[Male voice, identified as Cossack commander Nikolai Kozitsyn] That means they were carrying spies. Fuck them, got it? They shouldn't be fucking flying. There is a war going on.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28362872?ocid=socialflow_twitter

[brianw999]

Or to the US Military - another example of total fucking untrained idiots.

And what precisely do you base that all-encompassing little gem of a quote on ?

US Rangers, Marine Corps, Navy Seals, UK SAS, SBS, Marines and Paras, French Foreign Legion, even for that matter the Russian Spetznas to name but a few....... The best trained and equipped military operatives in the world....none of which you would want to piss off without risking ownership of your allotted 6 feet of ground.

[Gabriel]

And what precisely do you base that all-encompassing little gem of a quote on ?

It was a clear reference to the US Navy shoting down a civil airplane (Irnanian Airliens DC-9 IIRC) in the Persian Gulf, a civil commercial airplane that was on a scheduled fligh, with an pproved plan, had taken off from his assigned altitude, was fliyng straight and climbing to cruise altitude along a civil aviation airway, and was squacking it's assigned transponder code but, that the US navy mistook for an enemy F-14 that was in a typical attack maneuver and diving towards them and not giving the correct "friend" code to the automatic firend-or-foe interrogation nor replying the radio calls, none of which was done in the assigned civil ATC frequency for the zone.

Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.
And the worst part is that the captain of the ship, who was particularly known to be a totally fucking untrained idiot that tended to engage without obeying the rules of engagement, and who was the main responsible for this act, was promoted, got medals, etc instead of being jailed by the Martial Court.

[AVION1]

Whoever pushed the fire button, should be convicted for war crimes and genocide !

[Jpmkam]

NSTB Go Team is already on their way to area, along with a team of FBI investigators.

[Gabriel]

My point is they were not untrained idiots. They were highly trained idiots following foolish procedures and making foolish mistakes.

I think that more the later than the former. But ok, that's for another thread.

In this instance, if the missile was fired by the rebels, they most likely were not trained and had no procedures or rules of engagement.

[TheKiecker]

Flying over a warzone is one thing. Stupid.

Flying over a warzone, and THEN CHANGING COURSE is suicidal. Its exactly what an army on the lookout for a nasty surprise would be weary of.

[brianw999]

It was a clear reference to the US Navy shoting down a civil airplane (Irnanian Airliens DC-9 IIRC) in the Persian Gulf, a civil commercial airplane that was on a scheduled fligh, with an pproved plan, had taken off from his assigned altitude, was fliyng straight and climbing to cruise altitude along a civil aviation airway, and was squacking it's assigned transponder code but, that the US navy mistook for an enemy F-14 that was in a typical attack maneuver and diving towards them and not giving the correct "friend" code to the automatic firend-or-foe interrogation nor replying the radio calls, none of which was done in the assigned civil ATC frequency for the zone.

Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.
And the worst part is that the captain of the ship, who was particularly known to be a totally fucking untrained idiot that tended to engage without obeying the rules of engagement, and who was the main responsible for this act, was promoted, got medals, etc instead of being jailed by the Martial Court.

Right.

I see what you mean.

I misunderstood. I thought he was comparing US forces (the grunts on the ground, not their leaders) to the separatist forces generally who, let's face it, are nothing more than a rag, tag and bobtail bunch of amateurs with strong beliefs, no proper training and being led by their collective noses by Putin and his gang. It's a win/win for Putin. Succeed and he gets to effectively invade the Ukraine. Fail, and he's got someone else to blame and he goes home for tea and medals claiming that he helped stabilise the region. He and Obama have a little chat, agree that the problem seems to have gone away.....and in the meantime the relatives of 295 lost souls are left to grieve and wonder ..... WHY ?

[HalcyonDays]

Flying over a warzone is one thing. Stupid.

Flying over a warzone, and THEN CHANGING COURSE is suicidal. Its exactly what an army on the lookout for a nasty surprise would be weary of.

At some point the system failed, be it ICAO, airline managements, national regulators, government intelligence.....even maybe common sense. What are the overall priorities : the sad thing is none of the passengers on MH17 was allowed to carry along a tub of yoghurt or tube of toothpaste, yet that did them a lot of good.

[dr_cfii]

It was a clear reference to the US Navy shoting down a civil airplane (Irnanian Airliens DC-9 IIRC) in the Persian Gulf, a civil commercial airplane that was on a scheduled fligh, with an pproved plan, had taken off from his assigned altitude, was fliyng straight and climbing to cruise altitude along a civil aviation airway, and was squacking it's assigned transponder code but, that the US navy mistook for an enemy F-14 that was in a typical attack maneuver and diving towards them and not giving the correct "friend" code to the automatic firend-or-foe interrogation nor replying the radio calls, none of which was done in the assigned civil ATC frequency for the zone.

Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.
And the worst part is that the captain of the ship, who was particularly known to be a totally fucking untrained idiot that tended to engage without obeying the rules of engagement, and who was the main responsible for this act, was promoted, got medals, etc instead of being jailed by the Martial Court.

I believe it was an A300 with 290 passengers!
US officials never apologized and praised the actions of the serviceman. I wonder if anyone ever served time for that one?!