Originally posted by 3WE
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Originally posted by Evan View PostOriginally Posted by 3WE
Procedure:
1) If an engine fails and the first action to abort the the take-off has not effectively been started by V1, continue takeoff
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostFixed.
Can an engine fail AT V1?...given that V1 exists for an infinitely short time period...for practical purposes, there is only before V1 and after V1- especially for those fuzzy and slow low-Silicon flight computers...
And of course, there's some error built in, where aborting 1 knot after V1 probably won't harm the grass off within the first 10 feet of the end of the runway anyway.
It will; however, get you a bad grade on your simulator training where you practice problems 1 kt before and 1kt after V1 over and over and over, with no real mention of how pulling up relentlessly at slow speeds, might cause a stall, or if the ASI quits, that power + attitude = vertical + horizontal speed, or that at/near the service ceiling and slower than "best glide" you might wind up behind the power curve, or that many airplanes tend to oscillate up and down...slower and faster if they are flying at other than a trimmed airspeed and attitude...Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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This might help you 3WE. This is from an A330 FCOM:
INITIATION OF [EMERGENCY] PROCEDURES
Procedures are initiated on pilot flying command.
No action is taken (apart from cancelling audio warnings through the MASTER WARN light) until:
- the appropriate flight path is established, and
- the aircraft is at least 400' above the runway. (with exception for some emergency conditions).
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostCan an engine fail AT V1?...given that V1 exists for an infinitely short time period...for practical purposes, there is only before V1 and after V1...
But look at the procedure (attached). It ensures that the CPT, the pilot with the most experience, and the one who should always have his hands on the thrust levers during takeoff regardless of who is PF, will always take control during a high-speed rejection. Meanwhile, the PF is taking all non-flying tasks off the CPT and monitoring everything he does to ensure nothing is missed. CRM.
Without this procedure, there could be confusion over who is taking control and who is expected to monitor and could result in a fatal delay with the lesser pilot remaining in control (with his basic airmanship).
Of course this procedure must be instinctive. There is no time to look it up. I wonder how many Airbus pilots don't have it practiced and memorized...
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Originally posted by EvanThis might help you 3WE. This is from an A330 FCOM:
Quote:
INITIATION OF [EMERGENCY] PROCEDURES
Procedures are initiated on pilot flying command.
No action is taken (apart from cancelling audio warnings through the MASTER WARN light) until:
- the appropriate flight path is established, and
- the aircraft is at least 400' above the runway. (with exception for some emergency conditions).
So, you see, the first action of any procedure is for the PF to stabilize on the flight path using his basic airmanship. Only when he has done this does he call for the written procedure. (memory items are the exception, but there are only 6 or 7 of those).
I believe that the equivalent traditional memory checklist equivalent is:
1) Aviate. (The little dot is a period)
(And it works for the A330 FCOM, the the A330 FCOL, A330 FCON, A331, A329, 787, 707, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, ATR 42, 72, ERJ, CRJ, Baron, Bonanza, SR-21, 172, Piper Cub and maybe even a few other aircraft types that escape me at the moment)
If something bad happens at 390 feet AGL, I don't want the pilots worrying about 45 words of instructions and that the rules will change at 400 feet nor that that there's exceptions for certain emergencies (which I guess you need to know too).
When folks start forgetting really basic stuff, one place to look is for where things are overly complicated.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Evan View Post...Obviously V1, being a moment in time, you would have to reject after it occurs...
Are we getting overwhelmed with too much specific detail and confusing basic things?Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostI count more than 45 words
And you entirely missed the point I was trying to make.
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Let's assume a V1 of 100 Knots.
-The simplest way to define BEFORE V1 is to say any speed up to 99 knots.
-AT 100 knots you have REACHED V1. You are already there so 100 knots cannot be before V1.
-AFTER V1 must therefore be defined as 100 knots or more.
.....and so, in one simple stroke, the argument about what is before and what is after V1 is resolved. A side benefit is the removal of the hazy argument of AT V1.
Moving on.....If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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Originally posted by brianw999 View PostLet's assume a V1 of 100 Knots.
-The simplest way to define BEFORE V1 is to say any speed up to 99 knots.
-AT 100 knots you have REACHED V1. You are already there so 100 knots cannot be before V1.
-AFTER V1 must therefore be defined as 100 knots or more.
.....and so, in one simple stroke, the argument about what is before and what is after V1 is resolved. A side benefit is the removal of the hazy argument of AT V1.
Moving on.....
So if you have an engine fire alarm 1 or 2 seconds BEFORE V1, and by when the PM or the automated voice call V1 you HAVEN'T ALREADY STARTED to abort yet, you go.
The certification requires that the engine fails at a speed called Vef which is less than V1, the difference being the speed gain during the reaction time of the pilot to effectively start to apply the first breaking action, and this is defined as actually start moving some control, not just the hand or the feet towards said control.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostThey struggled a bit to find the switches in the real cockpit, tough
I remember when I had the chance to fly the real 737 sim, my 2 major problems were how to move the seat (in MSFS i just grab the chair and move it as I see fit) and how to release the parking brakes (in MSFS, prease the "period" key).
The typical joke for a new pilot in a type just out of the sim, in their first real flight, is "come on, let me show you how to open the door".
"Dear colleague, you know what? These young pupils, and I could be their father (!), will never learn anything, because they are SO young.
They tend to use daddys car for f*ckin rather for learning.
What on earth will be their future?!" fictional epilogue, the end.
Let us give a chance to the new generation, to find what?
...A really good simulator?
Or, better, a really good flight instructor!
PS: We have to open the 1L door of my nickname. So we use the key combination ... ... ..., or what do you expect?
Thats a really good one.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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And don't let me forget my default announcement for today:
"It seems like all the jp dinosaurs are awake. First of all, Gabe, but nonetheless, Evan, 3WE, LH-B744...
I wish a happy new Year 2015 for all of us!"
Btw, is it that this forum somehow is biased? I only see the 2nd floor of a 747 on top of this forum...
The airbus doubledecker is not mentioned in the jp logo...
I have heard rumours that due to a lack of airbus cooperation with Wilco there is nothing comparable to a B744 Home Simulator (by pmdg). So, what does an aviation enthusiast like me do?
He does not wait for airbus by pmdg.
PS: Virgin Atlantic is able to operate the 744 with a tail height of 63 ft 8 in (19,4 m) through the gate of Gatwick. This must be a good feeling, "this airport is big enough for a B744",
and one of the last adventures for a German B744 pilot. We normally fit into every average intercontinental airport on this planet.
I love my contemporary, the 747.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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