Nothing to see here. Nothing needs to be done. Definitely not some sort of regulatory requirement for the cash cow major airlines to invest in modern REDUNDANT networks. Definitely not that.
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The fragile cobweb of BA's computer network is nothing to be concerned about.
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Unless you have a deep distrust that this somehow leads to bypassing of safety procedures...
I concur that the fragility of the system and lack of backup are significant for the customer service and stock price departments.
As we have established, the former is not a priority... the latter; however, definitely deserves a thread in an obscure discussion forum somewhere!Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostNothing to see here. Nothing needs to be done. Definitely not some sort of regulatory requirement for the cash cow major airlines to invest in modern REDUNDANT networks. Definitely not that.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/27/wo...ure/index.html
It also has nothing to do with Cobwebs or Network. Like the Delta incident, the information so far indicates it is a hardware failure which points to the opposite of a cobweb (i.e. it is very centralized and not decentralized like a web). Frankly, it just points to very poor risk management and fault tolerance to hardware failure at some key part of the system.
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Originally posted by Schwartz View PostNo one regulates the efficacy of running a business. To do so, MIGHT eliminate instances such as this, but at the huge expense of efficiency. This is not a safety issue, it is a business issue. It is no different than accounting forgetting to pay the fuel bill and suddenly someone stops the taps and the planes are all grounded for 5 hours while they sort it out.
It also has nothing to do with Cobwebs or Network. Like the Delta incident, the information so far indicates it is a hardware failure which points to the opposite of a cobweb (i.e. it is very centralized and not decentralized like a web). Frankly, it just points to very poor risk management and fault tolerance to hardware failure at some key part of the system.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostA single point of failure that (perhaps through a cascade of subsequent failures) brings the entire thing crashing down. Imagine an A380 designed with a single engine. That's what we have here.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View PostExcept that instead of five hours, it is two days of chaos affecting thousands of people who depend on BA as a public transportation service. Governments must do what they can to prevent such epic fails as part of the social contract.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostExcept that instead of five hours, it is two days of chaos affecting thousands of people who depend on BA as a public transportation service. Governments must do what they can to prevent such epic fails as part of the social contract.
Exactly. A single point of failure that (perhaps through a cascade of subsequent failures) brings the entire thing crashing down. Imagine an A380 designed with a single engine. That's what we have here.
They have decided the cost of the extra redundancy wasn't worth the damage from an incident like this. Calling for regulation of this is ridiculous. You will end up with computer systems like the ones on the space shuttle.
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Originally posted by Schwartz View PostExcept it isn't the same as a 380 flying with one engine. No one dies when the plane doesn't take off from the ground. People only get inconvenienced, and that makes all the difference. Same way they get inconvenienced when a volcano erupts, or a hurricane raps the east coast. Five hours of no flights from lack of fuel would cause an equally damaging cascade effect on schedules for days.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostI object to the words 'only' and 'inconvenienced' there. If you had to sleep on the floor of an airport for two days because an airline can't provide fault tolerance in their networks, you might object to them as well. And let's not confuse a manmade clusterfuck for a natural disaster. This disaster was entriely preventable. As the next one will be. And the next one and then next one...
As for preventable? Many problems and even deaths (automobile comes to mind) are preventable in life. Life most other things, it is purely a matter of cost and ROI. Again, these are business decisions, nothing more.
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Originally posted by Schwartz View PostPlease. People can always choose to go to a hotel or home.
Meanwhile, day three of clusterfuck. IT guys still trying to make sense of the cobweb. Not only do we still have zero fault tolerance, we also have fix intolerance. What a lovely mess waiting to happen this was.
Airlines can always choose to build robust networks.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostI want to live in your world.
Meanwhile, day three of clusterfuck. IT guys still trying to make sense of the cobweb. Not only do we still have zero fault tolerance, we also have fix intolerance. What a lovely mess waiting to happen this was.
Airlines can always choose to build robust networks.
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Originally posted by Schwartz View PostLast time I checked we lived in the same world, where corporations trade off customer service with cost ALL THE TIME.
A whole days profit and expensive rectifications...Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostI only side with Evan that its amazing when this happens... it has to be expensive and one would think 'worth' avoiding with some pretty robust efforts and back ups.
A whole days profit and expensive rectifications...
But you are certainly right 3WE, the expense of this debarcle will outstrip the cost of having prevented it. The problem is, this is not the result of practical and visionary cost/benefit thinking. This is push-it-down-the-road-cross-that-bridge-when-we-come-to-it-careening-headlong-into-quarterly-performance-stock-valuation-because-the-largesse-of-my-compensation-is-determined-by-share-price-valuation thinking.
All of which could be avoided by sensible regulatory standards for the network fault tolerance of airline operations that societies entirely depend on to function.
And lastly, I feel I'll need to repeat this until the tragic day I'm proven right: any element of chaos which imposes stress and pressure on commercial aviation IS, through an unpredictable chain of events, A SAFETY RISK.
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Originally posted by Evan View Post...And lastly, I feel I'll need to repeat this until the tragic day I'm proven right: any element of chaos which imposes stress and pressure on commercial aviation IS, through an unpredictable chain of events, A SAFETY RISK.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostAll of which could be avoided by sensible regulatory standards for the network fault tolerance of airline operations that societies entirely depend on to function.
Well, I also think it's a matter of ethics and responsibility to your society (the one that makes it possible for you to prosper in the first place). It's just not cricket to leave people in a state of chaos that could have been prevented by a little less bottom-line and a little more high-mindedness. But all that is so quaint in an age where the word "business" is some sort of ubiquitously acceptable excuse for not having a shred of foresight or concern for the poor weary traveler who—no—does not often have the option of a hotel or home, but must rather wait around stranded in an absurd state of limbo for days in everyone's least favorite place to lay one's head, the modern airport.
And lastly, I feel I'll need to repeat this until the tragic day I'm proven right: any element of chaos which imposes stress and pressure on commercial aviation IS, through an unpredictable chain of events, A SAFETY RISK.
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