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Vintage JU-52 aircraft crashes in Swiss Alps
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Final report out
AVH's summary (and reconstruction video)
The level of deep analysis that they were able to do and the amount of data they were able to obtain or reconstruct is truly amazing, given that the plane was not equipped with recorders. They must have invested a lot of time, effort and resources.
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostFinal report out
AVH's summary (and reconstruction video)
The level of deep analysis that they were able to do and the amount of data they were able to obtain or reconstruct is truly amazing, given that the plane was not equipped with recorders. They must have invested a lot of time, effort and resources.
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Originally posted by Evan View Post
So, basically an unrecoverable stall at low altitude brought on by windshear and exacerbated by an out-of-range COG?
Oh, and they should not have been that low to begin with.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
More than that. If you look at the video, before the stall they were above parts of the surrounding terrain (i.e. they had an escape route). Very possibly if they had not tried to climb so desperately and just firewalled the throttles and keep Vy or Vx, they would have gotten out of it.
Oh, and they should not have been that low to begin with.
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Instead of addressing “the apparent trend for military pilots to systematically ignore procedures”, I am more concerned “with the apparent trend to not_monitor airspeed”.
Anyone have insight or possible solutions?Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostInstead of addressing “the apparent trend for military pilots to systematically ignore procedures”, I am more concerned “with the apparent trend to not_monitor airspeed”.
Anyone have insight or possible solutions?
If you put yourself in that low altitude position in mountainous terrain subject to windshear and your airspeed suddenly goes from healthy to stall and you lack the power to power out of it and the altitude to recover and lowering the AoA means crashing into a mountain, is this a problem of piloting technique or a problem of piloting judgement?
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Originally posted by Evan View Post
You mean during sudden windshear? You mean monitoring the sudden drop in airspeed would have saved them?
If you put yourself in that low altitude position in mountainous terrain subject to windshear and your airspeed suddenly goes from healthy to stall and you lack the power to power out of it and the altitude to recover and lowering the AoA means crashing into a mountain, is this a problem of piloting technique or a problem of piloting judgement?
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Originally posted by Evan View PostYou mean monitoring the sudden drop in airspeed would have saved them?
Footnote: Sorry, but monitoring airspeed is directly linked to maintaining airspeed in my mind, not a type-specific checklist of 1. Monitor, 2. A if fast then, B. If about right, then C. if too slow, then.....I'm sorry that these sorts of things can't be reconciled in your mind. I find the linkage to be quite natural.
Long answer:
-We know you don't listen to me (that's fine)
-We know you don't listen to professional pilots (that's sad)
-BUT I THOUGHT YOU LISTENED TO GABRIEL
-Oh, that's right, you don't listen much at all.
Originally posted by Gabriel paraphrasedIt's generally better to crash in control than out of control.
The report said the pilots slowed up and reduced power while descending. I dunno the type specific checklist for a Junkers, but that would seem to be a way to improve your ability to stall. Had they powered up and kept their speed up...JMO, but maybe they don't stall.
Am I absolutely certain they could have avoided a crash? No, but the report talks about the pilots reducing speed and power and talks about updrafts and downdrafts MORE THAN HORRENDOUS SPEED-LOSS WIND SHEARS.
Gabriel: Any opinion?
Anyway, never mind, the crash was caused by systematic deviation from procedures by military folks who live to ignore procedure.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by 3WE View Post
Originally posted by GabrielIt's generally better to crash in control than out of control.
Face it. The gross pilot error here was being there in the first place. ANY pilot, regardless of background, who had safely firmly in mind would not have been there.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostYou mean during sudden windshear? You mean monitoring the sudden drop in airspeed would have saved them?
But for me the most important part was that the operator as a whole was operating with a very poor safety culture. In that context, pilots operate with a very poor safety culture no matter if they are ex-military or not. Because pilots that want to keep high standards when flying for an operator with a poor safety culture either end up lowering their standards or resign or are fired.
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--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View PostReally? It's better to crash into a mountainside under control than to crash into a valley out of control?
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--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View PostFace it. The gross pilot error here was being there in the first place. ANY pilot, regardless of background, who had safely firmly in mind would not have been there.
Especially since that was the "normal" way for them to operate.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View PostOk, I concede it is probably better to die instantly by slamming into a granite-faced alpine mountain than to experience the terror of diving into a valley. If that's what you mean.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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