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Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut. -
How could you possibly not agree? This is a textbook lesson on rigorous adherence to procedure.Originally posted by 3WE View Post
But many questions...
Did the ground maintenance think it was a 68 Camaro instead of a multimillion dollar airplane? Just ram a screwdriver in there?!
Doesn't the fire handle on the MD-80 cut off the fuel valve?
Isn't pulling the fire handle after getting an engine fire indication a MEMORY ITEM?
How can you have a gear extension failure and not immediately think to check the hydraulics?
Why, when going around, would you not retract the landing flaps as a MEMORY ITEM?
And who cares, at that point, about the cockpit door? Leave it! More important things to focus on, I would think... -
I mostly blame the copilot CRM: “HOLD ON, I’M IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ENGINE FIRE CHECKLIST!!!!!”
I praise the crew for continuing to FDGDA, although communicate, may have been over prioritized.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.Comment
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The MEMORY procedure is pretty straightforward. FIRE indication... scan engine instruments to confirm... PULL RED HANDLE. Then go to the checklist.
Pulling the fire handle closes the fuel shutoff valve. You're basically done at that point. The rest is ENGINE 1 (2) OUT flying procedure.
Am I wrong?Comment
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I don’t know, and don’t care.Originally posted by Evan View Post
HOWEVER
I ass-ume it’s good to get it done promptly, and two, experienced and recurrently trained botched it (significant delay) due to an ill-timed “your airplane”.
Grabbing the yoke might have been “the most reasonable” choice for FO, but firmly stating “Hey, I’m in the middle of the fire checklist” seems to be a critical oversight by the FO. And, the captain might deserve a wrist slap for not_being halfway aware of that status.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.Comment
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If I am not mistaken, the first memory item for the PM for an engine failure in take-off is call the failure, and then do nothing.
Take off procedure takes precedence. Rotate, positive climb gear up, monitor pitch and speed V2+. etc... Don't touch any engine control until you achieved certain prescribed height, are past the spike of the take-off workload, and can focus and take your time to identify the bad engine and have it confirmed by both pilots before you attempt to troubleshoot.
I think (but I am not sure) that the same applies to engine fires.
If at the point start troubleshooting and are working on the confirmation of the wrong engine and getting ready to pull the red handle, the captain says "your plane" (terrible, why on Earth would he do that?), you kinda have no choice but to stop whatever you are doing and take control. Flying the plane has precedence over ANY other task including addressing an engine fire (even if that's not written in any checklist or memory item).
After taking control, by all means say something, like "Hey, I was working to secure the bad engine. Can you take control back for 30 seconds or do you want to work the engine fire procedure?"
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---Comment
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And if I am not mistaken, one of the first rules of CRM club is that you NEVER hand off the plane until a failure alert is stabilized**Originally posted by 3WE View Post
Yes, bonehead move.
**unless that emergency is being caused by the pilot flying.Comment
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Definitely, call the failure and confirm the failed engine. But the fire handle DOES THAT FOR YOU. I would still take a momentary glance at the instruments to assure that is not a false warning.Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
But the nature of the fire handle is to allow an instant, instinctive response to get the fuel cutoff, the engine shut down and the fire out, without the need to think beyond FIRE --> PULL.
Immediately after that, the QRH, disconnect the AP, retard the corresponding thrust lever (AFTER the squib has been fired and you have time for SA and are not panicking and retarding the good one) and cut off the fuel valve in case the fire handle logic failed to do that.
I don't see any reason not to pull the fire handle at any time during the takeoff.
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Originally posted by EvanLes règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.Comment
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Negative, and with very good reason. Can you think of what it might be?Originally posted by Evan View PostComment
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The only thing I can think of is a false indication but the engine instruments should confirm that. Why else would you leave a fire burning?Originally posted by ATLcrew View PostComment
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Is the engine still producing thrust? Might you need that? Goes back to my old comment of if you haven't been there...Originally posted by Evan View PostComment
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Isn't the airplane certified to take-off, climb to a safe altitude, return and land on the remaining engine?Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
The moral of this story is that fires need to be extinguished before they can lead to bigger problems. Which they can do pretty quickly.
And explain to me why fire handles are big flashing red things that say FIRE if that's not true.
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