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Hmmm... did he shoot himself OR did the KGB do it to keep him quiet? We need to have a lengthy discussion about this, with diagrams.
A little bit of class? Maybe? Could you make an exception in this case?
He was holding a press conference, told the journalists that they should not yield to the official pressure, said that he will defend the honor of an officer, asked them to leave for a short recess and then they heard a shot.
Where are the Black boxes and places wrack?? Why don't you return Poland's property back to Poland so we can do the right research?? Like in the past Russia is trying to cover up their crimes against Poland and Polish People!!! If this was just an accident then why don't they let Polish investigators near the planes wrack and the black boxes. What are the Russians hiding!!!!???
What if something happened to the next Soviet flight of pols to land in Poland? Would they get pissed enough to declare war and enslave the Polish people.
Uhhhh wait, hold that thought.
You make an excellent point if that was US AF1 or AF2 we would be on this like flies on shit.
Hell, that Russian Antonov just took down Saab Auto and the Swedes are too stupid to catch on to it.
Of course I just looked up .... Denel Saab A400 .... and got a shock.
Where are the Black boxes and places wrack?? Why don't you return Poland's property back to Poland so we can do the right research?
Because there is a judicial investigation going on in Russia too, and these items are evidence in that case.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
There is a judicial investigation going in Poland too, and these items are property of Poland. It is unprecedented in history that in a case like this, where political and military elite of a country perishes on a foreign soil, this country has to plead and ask for a permission every time it needs access to the evidence, and such access is so limited.
Assuming that we are taking strictly law and not politics, conspiracies and the such, if a crime is suspected to be committed in one jurisdiction no judge in the World would let the evidence to be released from such jurisdiction (and in fact from the guard of the court) until the case is either closed or the trial and subsequent appeals are done.
Ask any judge in the World that returns to you what's lawfully your property (which is also evidence) while the case is on-going.
"That videotape is mine, here you have the invoice, I bought it and it's mine and I require that it is returned to me immediately, no mater if you intend to use it to judge someone for an homicide".
Ha!
What's the jurisdiction in this case? Poland or Russia?
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
If Airforce 1 crashed in Russia, how long do you think Russia would be in posession of the wreckage? 5 minutes? All the pieces, even the smallest, would be returned to the US where the plane would be meticulously reconstructed and examined.
Who has a jurisdiction over crimes that happen on the grounds of a foreign embassy in Russia?
This was a presidential plane, in the worst case the jurisdiction should have been joint, Polish and Russian. The judicial proceedings can go for another 5 years and the wreckage is rusting in the open on a slab of concrete in Smolensk. Give me a break.
There is a judicial investigation going in Poland too, and these items are property of Poland. It is unprecedented...
Exactly. There is no precedent. So how do you resolve it? This has yet to be determined, and it is proving to be a very sensitive thing to resolve. I think they are holding their cards wisely.
If Airforce 1 crashed in Russia...
How? Would Air Force 1 fly into a remote airfield with no ILS in those conditions? No. Would Air Force 1 be piloted by an inexperienced crew? Never. Does Barack Obama have a history of berating his pilots for adhering to pilot discipline? Not at all.
The facts of this case are unprecedented, and the Russians are going to lengths to handle it in a way that does not leave the Polish room to bend the truth. Since nobody knows how to bend the truth better than the Russians, they don't trust anybody else with it.
This is no longer an aviation investigation. It is a political seed of discontent. Too bad the truth has such little power over that.
So, planes have not crashed before when going below minimums when trying an approach in severe IMC when there was a powerful person on board on an extremely important trip?
Enlightening.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
Exactly.
How? Would Air Force 1 fly into a remote airfield with no ILS in those conditions? No. Would Air Force 1 be piloted by an inexperienced crew? Never. Does Barack Obama have a history of berating his pilots for adhering to pilot discipline? Not at all.
The facts of this case are unprecedented, and the Russians are going to lengths to handle it in a way that does not leave the Polish room to bend the truth. Since nobody knows how to bend the truth better than the Russians, they don't trust anybody else with it.
This is no longer an aviation investigation. It is a political seed of discontent. Too bad the truth has such little power over that.
You start sounding like a broken record, Evan.
So Air Force 1 could not crash in Russia? What about flying into a flock of famous huge Russian geese? Or being struck by a soviet power grade lightning? Or an errant missile fired accidentally during some military exercise in Ukraine?
You are correct though that no one can bend the truth better than the Russians. But what seed of discontent? Polish and Russian governments are like two brothers here, given, a Big Brother and a little brother.
Evan, if AF1 screwed the pooch in whatever Russian strip be it a cow pasture or Moscow, we would have that Boeing back.
What the heck are the Poles going to do?
There must be some kind on international precedent, laws of the "high seas" and all of that good stuff.
Look at international law, this "ship" was not abandoned on the high seas and ripe for plunder.
Ah, hell, the Poles are used to getting dry humped by Germany to the west and Russia to the east. The meadows have stood between a rock and hard place since day one. Just maintaining even the language or Polish identity has been a series of one compromise after another.
The UK went to war over a dozen sheep, three cows and a pig down in the Falklands didn't it?
The Polish leader dies in a crash and you can't even get the damned charred beer can back.
They say a Pole came up with the first monoplane but we must be stupid as a nationality buying a Russian POS in the first place. A good old 727 and they would probably be alive.
I still want to know what stupid SOB was dumb enough to put searchlights out in a cow pasture. Fog lights on cars don't even work, so lets go out and create a blinding haze?
I know who is to blame. I know how to prevent it from happening again. Fortunately, so does the Polish government. They know what caused it, and they have made changes. It won't happen again. That's all that matters here.
Everything else is just the usual parasites seeing opportunity in tragedy, fertile soil to sow seeds of conspiracy, paranoia, prejudice and distrust. Why? Why do they want to perpetuate these things? Why do they always chase after misfortunes? The bodies are still warm and there they are, building conspiracies out of nothing but their own obsessive distrust for anything outside their purview.
Northwester, this one is solved, both sides agree on that, and this thread is a broken record.
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