777 Crash and Fire at SFO

[Highkeas]

That's pretty usual. There are two typical ways to get to the left seat in a plane: from the right seat in the same plane or from a left seat in another plane.

Of course, whhether you get into a new seat (left or right) you'll have an instructor or similar at your side who will have PIC authority.

A captain under training on the left seat + a captain giving training on the right seat = the captain giving training is PIC (although, for training purposes, he can pretend he isn't and ask the "student" to act as if he was the PIC).

I have a question that is somewhat related to the Asiana crash.

Whenever an airline aquires a new type aircraft (787 or A380 for example) how do the first training pilots (instructors) selected to fly accumulate flight hours? Is it on ferry flights, non-passenger flights, sitting with Boeing/EADS pilots, or what? Am I wrong in thinking some flights are conducted with both pilots having zero flight hours on type?

Thanks.

[Gabriel]

The NTSB released a new video of the crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

[Evan]

The CVR transcript:

http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-55499%2F55433%2F544904.pdf

Two ignored sink rate warnings + dropping through 500ft at over 1000fpm and still no go-around. Really what more do we need to say?

Baaad culture.

Questions:

Where exactly does the sterile cockpit rule begin?

Are autopilot modes commonly included in the appraoch briefing?

[BoeingBobby]

Where exactly does the sterile cockpit rule begin?

At 10000 feet

Are autopilot modes commonly included in the approach briefing?

Yes they are, depending on the type of approach.

[Gabriel]

Are autopilot modes commonly included in the appraoch briefing?

In the approach briefing he said that he'll use V/S to control the descent during the final approach. I guess he means the V/S mode.

[UncleFire]

Reading the transcript it doesn't look like a sterile cockpit to me. (Pro pilots weigh in.) They were chatting about physicals and other airlines and pilots. Talk of getting lasik, etc.

Really? Land the friggin' plane. Chat later (or chat before you get busy)

[Evan]

In the approach briefing he said that he'll use V/S to control the descent during the final approach. I guess he means the V/S mode.

So they flew the approach using FLCH after briefing for V/S. I'm wondering why not VNAV PTH in these conditions?

[3WE]

The new story of the dude being scared is most interesting. But that changes just about nothing. They flew a pretty mundane approach and simultaneously botched watching the airspeed and assuming the speed control had their back.

[3WE]

The NTSB released a new video of the crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

That was so close to a major breakup fireball huge death toll...nice that it held together.

[BoeingBobby]

so they flew the approach using flch after briefing for v/s. I'm wondering why not vnav pth in these conditions?

bingo!

[Gabriel]

FLTCH is similar to "open descent" in Airbus?

http://avherald.com/h?article=46d16a49&opt=0

AF at it again.

[Evan]

FLTCH is similar to "open descent" in Airbus?

http://avherald.com/h?article=46d16a49&opt=0

AF at it again.

Yes! Especially in that they are both never to be used on final! OP DES is a selected guidance mode whereas DES is a managed mode. OP DES will retard the thrust to IDLE and maintain a speed target in pitch mode. There is a modal reversion to a SPEED mode at VLS but I'm not sure that it will save you if the AT is not engaged. But, short answer: using OP DES on final is what we call HO LEE FUKing the automation.

In addition, the lack of understanding of how open descent, open climb and autothrottle work with the crew believing the autoflight systems would still ensure maintaining correct airspeed led to lack of monitoring of airspeed.

Um... wrong. Poor cultural training and discipline on the need to ALWAYS MONITOR AIRSPEED led to a lack of monitoring airspeed. Even if the thing is supposed to take of airspeed, you ALWAYS monitor the thing.

Am I right or am I right?

[3WE]

...ALWAYS MONITOR AIRSPEED...Even if the thing is supposed to take of airspeed, you ALWAYS monitor the thing.

Are you sure that isn't a type specific thing that should come from procedures and checklists and memory items listed in the POH/QRH and aircraft-specific training?

[TeeVee]

evan's point, i think, once again misses reality. HAL is being programmed to be more robust, especially in busses. crews are trained and instructed time and again how wonderful HAL in the bus is and how he won't let you screw the pooch. they even make public videos about it to make the public feel safe.

i'm sure that in a perfect world with perfect pilots, busses are pretty much foolproof. however, we don't live in that world and never will. and all that tech comes with a price: the price of mental overload.

how many mode combinations/settings are there? in how many potential scenarios/phases of flight? in how many weather conditions? with how many pilots of varying skill?

what happens is the pilot becomes less of a pilot and more of a HAL supervisor. i think it was on avherald that i read (not for the first time), that bus pilots spend too much time trying to figure out "what's it doing now?" now maybe they are not trained to god-like (read, Sully, who also made mistakes) levels, but they have all clearly passed some for of standardized testing to get to where they are--in the front of the aluminum tube we are crammed into.

in every situation were change occurs, there are tradeoffs. sure tech has made flying more safe in many if not most respects. alpha floor is simply an amazing idea. however, it has also introduced new dangers.

how many of the more recent accidents involved "pilot error" with respect to automation? how many were simply pilots flying manually into the ground?

[3WE]

...how many of the more recent accidents involved "pilot error" with respect to automation? how many were simply pilots flying manually into the ground?

Interesting question as several of our recent Airbus crashes are pilots flying manually into the ground, while confused by the automatic systems...

...of course, I wouldn't say they simply flew into the ground- the 36,000 ft stall and this crash of too high too fast that gradually evolves into too low and too slow, and I'm not watching speed- these are somewhat complex and a little bit insidious.

...or do you mean the more fat, dumb and happy highly controlled flight into terrain more like UPS at Birmingham?