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Flydubai Flight 981 Crashes on Landing in Rostov-on-Don, Russia
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Originally posted by Evan View PostWhen there are a whole lot of people in back paying for the ride, you follow procedures.
By the way, using one's flying skills is perfectly fine if you respect procedure while you are doing it.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by elaw View PostHey out of curiosity... when an airplane is first flown, before there are any procedures written, by the guys (& girls) who *write* the procedures... are those people being "cowboys"?
I'm just trying to distinguish when using one's flying skills is irresponsible and when it's not.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Sure they do but they're not the same procedures as line pilots follow. As I'm sure you know, their philosophy is dramatically different in that many of the tests are designed to *find* (or confirm) the limits of the aircraft rather than avoid them. Or in other words their purpose is not to ensure absolute safety, it's to try to maintain safety while deliberately exploring conditions that could be unsafe.
Also, the team that creates test procedures often includes the same pilots that will be using those procedures to fly the aircraft.
Put together, to me what the above means is that while standard operating procedures in line operations are designed to ensure safety by having pilots follow them like robots without thinking or using their flying skills to any great degree, test procedures involve thinking by the pilots in their creation, and rely heavily on the pilots' flying skills to ensure safety.
So while what I wrote may not be correct in implying test piloting involves no predefined procedures, those procedures vs. airline SOP is an apples-to-oranges comparison.Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
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Originally posted by elaw View Post...pilots follow them like robots without thinking or using their flying skills...
Last I knew, there were several solid procedures in place (with nice safety buffers) allowing a hand-flown approach to 300 scattered, 1000 ft broken, and 1/2 mile visibility, and 25 MPH wind gusts and a 15 kt crosswind component. Sounds like a good exercise for a professional pilot.
But when I make comments like that, the EMS computer elicits the warning "Cowboy...Cowboy..." much like the beep when pilots go click clack paddy-whack, give the pilot the plane.
Maybe one of the procedures is to go around if turbulence is severe?
After hearing the ATC recording and the nice, professional and reasonably calm replies from the aircraft (including "going around") and the videos of very boring minute-long climb into the clouds, I'm wondering a little more if it wasn't something mechanical, sudden and catastrophic?Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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I think the aircraft's descent rate in the moments before impact will be very telling here.
500 or even 1000 feet/minute would indicate a relatively normal landing that went south and had a bad ending. 21,000 feet/minute that I think I saw earlier in this thread and seems (maybe) to be backed up by the videos... there's nothing "normal" about that!Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
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Originally posted by elaw View Post...standard operating procedures in line operations are designed to ensure safety by having pilots follow them like robots without thinking or using their flying skills to any great degree...Originally posted by 3WERobots... robots...
Procedure is NOT the opposite of hand-flying. Procedures allow for hand-flying and hand-flying requires procedures. Improvising instead of adhering to CRM procedure is the single deadliest problem in aviation today. Almost every non-terrorist-related crash in the past ten years involved poor CRM and skipped or violated procedure.
Procedure is NOT the opposite of thinking. It is thinking very clearly about safety. It is having the intelligence to understand why you must respect it. It is having the mental discipline and proficiency to always get everyone on board safely back on the ground (including yourself). Learning and becoming proficient at procedure is mentally challenging and some pilots can't think well enough to learn it. They may have ace flying skills in a Cessna but they are not airline pilot material.
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FYI: FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35855678
(I think we can pretty much stick a fork in FlyDubai after this article. Hopefully it will embolden other pilots and serve as a strong lesson to other abusive operators.)
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostNo.
Unless you are suggesting that the actual final descent rate at touchdown was deliberate. A touchdown at that descent rate did indeed exceed a/c limits.
Let me see if the METAR that I can set up for FZ 981 is at least acceptable, if not accurate.
Schedule:
dep (Dubai) 1745 z
arr (Rostov na Donu) 2220 z
delay in Dubai 35 minutes
METAR URRR 182200Z 23027 ...
After a closer look at that, I like to second what you have said: No. The limits haven't been exceeded.
"The captain was 38-year-old" . This can't be a reason either, since March 24th, 2015.
"under investigation". But they proceed with a list: zero US-Americans, zero Germans, zero Great Britains,
but 2 Spanish.
I am not able to write Spanish, but March seems to be an awful month for Spanish (and German) aviation.
2 minutes of silence for each of the flights.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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vis is reported as normal but decreasing, from 3 (5000 m) to less then 1.9 (3500 m).
I know that Boeing jets are able to fly with a visibility of 1, a 110% perfect ATC and ILS guidance assumed.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostYour posts are as inane as Avions!
insane.
Do you know more than just that one word?The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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Originally posted by LH-B744 View PostLet me correct you. The word that you are looking for is
insane.
Do you know more than just that one word?
Actually, had I wanted to use insane I would have. I do not know you well enough to determine that. However inane is a word in the English language.
in·ane iˈnān adjective silly; stupid. "don't constantly badger people with inane questions"
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostActually, had I wanted to use insane I would have. I do not know you well enough to determine that. However inane is a word in the English language.
in·ane iˈnān adjective silly; stupid. "don't constantly badger people with inane questions"
Do you know more than just that one word?The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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