Originally posted by BoeingBobby
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Bad take-off computation.
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Originally posted by ATLcrew View PostNo, more like common decency and courtesy. There are people whose job it is to release the wash, and BB is not one of them.
i'm not advocating anyone getting canned over this, since i'm not in the position to judge whether this was the kind of mistake that absolutely should never have been made. and i rarely, if ever, rejoice in anyone losing their job. but you've gotta think of it this way: being in charge of an enormously dangerous instrumentality carries with it an enormous burden not to eff up, and if you do, you're gone.
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Originally posted by TeeVee View Postlike i suspected, blue wall stuff. you do realize that this helps no one? and further, the names were omitted to "protect" the not so innocent. and of course, i'm being sarcastic here, as it's not about innocence or guilt. this was very very likely pilots' error. as an alleged pilot yourself, you should be grateful for the lesson learned.
i'm not advocating anyone getting canned over this, since i'm not in the position to judge whether this was the kind of mistake that absolutely should never have been made. and i rarely, if ever, rejoice in anyone losing their job. but you've gotta think of it this way: being in charge of an enormously dangerous instrumentality carries with it an enormous burden not to eff up, and if you do, you're gone.
I know Atlas, NO ONE is going to loose their job over this. There will be a come to Jesus meeting at the training center in MIA, and more than likely a sim ride or two.
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostHuman beings have an inherent flaw, they make mistakes. This is one of the reasons for the verification process. Is it perfect? Nothing ever is!Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Ya know...ANOTHER reason for the 'line of scilence' is that blabbing can open the employer up to 'defamation' lawsuits from the ALLEDGED stupid pilots (suits aided by someone's coworkers.) I know I'm a dumbass at times, but y'all continue to say the funniest things.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostHuman beings have an inherent flaw, they make mistakes. This is one of the reasons for the verification process. Is it perfect? Nothing ever is!
It's also really easy for 2 pilots in the same environment to make the same mistake at the same time (see recent Air Canada incident).
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To Schwartz and TeeVee and Evan's point... I made this exercise before and was not taken seriously because, they said, it is not realistic. it is not, and it is not meant to be. It is an oversimplified reality to make a point. Reality is much more complex (and worse).
Say that all pilots are alike, they have exactly the same training, same skills, same strength and weakness regardless of their experience (they all have enough experience to have their ATP license and that's enough, additional experience doesn't make them any different).
Now, that doesn't mean that there is no randomness. You can have identical dice and they will not yield identical values every time. But, ON AVERAGE, even if they are biased (but in the same way) they WILL produce the same fraction of 1, 2, 3, etc... among them.
In the same way, these pilots don't touch down always with the same vertical speed, but the average vertical speed and the distribution of vertical speeds around that average is the same for all of them. (just used the touchdown vertical speed as an example, but it can be anything).
Now say that there is a mistake (like wrong take-off computation) that this universe of pilots make, as a combined crew, at a rate of once per million flights. And say that this mistake ends up being an accident one out of 100 times that it is made. Since these pilots fly, on average, 10,000 flights along all their career. The vast majority of these pilots are never involved in such a mistake. Only 1 in 100. And only 1 in 10,000 have an accident as a result of this mistake. Yet, with 40 million flights per year, we have on average 40 such incidents per year and an accident every 2.5 years.
When this accident happens it is very tempting to say "pilot error, they were irresponsible, they didn't do their job, after all most of the pilots never make this error in their whole career". And yet, that's not the case. With the current system and process, this accident is bound to happen every 2.5 years on average. And blaming, disciplining and firing the pilots who make it will not help an inch to improve the situation. Not only it can happen to any pilot, but it can happen to any pilot with the same probability. It is something that WILL happen to some of them, any of them, at any time, every once and then.
Now, full disclosure is something that can lead to improve the situation. It can make the pilots more aware. It can help make the pilots realize that that can happen to them too. The poor unlucky pilots that made the mistake can explain how this mistake happens, what factors were involved, and this information can be used to take actions reduce the likelihood of occurrence.
And yes, I realize that these pilots, in the Atlas case, didn't follow the procedure. Every time there is a PILOT ERROR there is something that was not done correctly. But, even then, there is a fine and fuzzy line (but there IS a line) between a real mistake and reckless negligence.
Giving any kind of disciplinary action to this crew makes no sense to me. Giving THEM remedial training either. These pilots will not make the same mistake with or without remedial training. They learnt the lesson the hard way. Improving procedures, improving the training program, adding software aids, adding TOMPS, maybe adding or changing regulations, etc works much better. I mean, can work at all.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostAnd yes, I realize that these pilots, in the Atlas case, didn't follow the procedure. Every time there is a PILOT ERROR there is something that was not done correctly. But, even then, there is a fine and fuzzy line (but there IS a line) between a real mistake and reckless negligence.
The only obvious negligence I see here is the continued resistance by both the industry and its pilots to making TOPMS a standard requirement. Since it is a relatively simply, relatively cheap, relatively maintenance-free and relatively harmless addition to the cockpit, I see no excuse for this.
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