Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[Evan]

A United 787-10 conducting a flight to Tel Aviv returned to Newark after reaching the Canadian border. This comes days after an AA flight from Miami to London turned back over the mid-Atlantic. Both were provoked by anti-maskers. There have been 92 such incidents this year and 4,290 last year.

What is the expense involved? The FAA zero-tolerance policy levees fines 'up to $37,000'. That wouldn't seem to cover it. It's also a felony and hopefully these people will have nice long jail sentences to contemplate their 'freedoms' and lose the ability to vote in future elections.

The deplorables need their own airline.

[3WE]

A United xxxx conducting a flight to Tel Aviv returned to Newark after reaching the Canadian border.

LOL- I rode that flight a couple times…

The demeanor of many of the passengers was quite New York.

I also get the feeling that there were very special flight attendants trained by some army near the destination…

Unfortunately, people over there sometimes like to kill each other and downing a plane will get you some headlines.

[TeeVee]

laughably, the fines do not get paid to the airline. i, for one, will sue anyone that causes my flight to get cancelled or turned around as a result of their failure to comply with (ridiculous) mask requirements.

[Gabriel]

A United 787-10 conducting a flight to Tel Aviv returned to Newark after reaching the Canadian border. This comes days after an AA flight from Miami to London turned back over the mid-Atlantic. Both were provoked by anti-maskers. There have been 92 such incidents this year and 4,290 last year.

What is the expense involved? The FAA zero-tolerance policy levees fines 'up to $37,000'. That wouldn't seem to cover it. It's also a felony and hopefully these people will have nice long jail sentences to contemplate their 'freedoms' and lose the ability to vote in future elections.

The deplorables need their own airline.

The problem is that the fraction of the population that is "deplorable" is low but not low enough to give a high confidence that there will be no deplorable on board your 150+ pax flight.
Airlines are tending not to sue the offender. And it seems that prosecutors either. What airlines are doing instead is putting the pax in the no-fly list. I don't know if they do, but airlines could team up to have a common database of no-fly assholes. Not being able to take ANY plane to anywhere for 10 years is probably a stronger deterrent and punishment than the fine.

[Evan]

I don't know if they do, but airlines could team up to have a common database..

Hahahahahahahaha! That's hilarious! The idea that airlines databases aren't a fifth-party shambles on the brink of disaster but rather a coordinated, well thought-out exchange of information is... just hilarious.

[flashcrash]

The offending passenger on the Miami to London flight was sitting in first class.

[Evan]

Tasers?

[brianw999]

laughably, the fines do not get paid to the airline. i, for one, will sue anyone that causes my flight to get cancelled or turned around as a result of their failure to comply with (ridiculous) mask requirements.

Disagree with your description of mask wearing being ridiculous.

Masks are not worn to prevent the wearer from being infected, Masks are worn to reduce the chances of the wearer passing the virus on to other people, especially where people are sitting close together. It is possible to be fully vaccinated but still be able to carry and pass on the virus whilst remaining asymptomatic. That is a proven clinical fact.
I am a clinically trained person who happens to consider the safety of those around me. I don’t wear a mask outside but I do maintain social spacing and I do, as a matter of course wear a mask when I am in close proximity to others without the ability to guarantee social distancing.

[Evan]

Disagree with your description of mask wearing being ridiculous.

Masks are not worn to prevent the wearer from being infected, Masks are worn to reduce the chances of the wearer passing the virus on to other people, especially where people are sitting close together. It is possible to be fully vaccinated but still be able to carry and pass on the virus whilst remaining asymptomatic. That is a proven clinical fact.
I am a clinically trained person who happens to consider the safety of those around me. I don’t wear a mask outside but I do maintain social spacing and I do, as a matter of course wear a mask when I am in close proximity to others without the ability to guarantee social distancing.

I think the best solution is fit the O2 masks with an N95 outflow filter, modify them to work the duration of the flight, and just leave the cabin outflow valve open. Then those who find masks ridiculous have the freedom to pass out and die from hypoxia. Everybody wins!

[Schwartz]

The sooner they get rid of these nonsense mask rules the better off everyone will be. I am certain the airlines want to do away with them. On one side, you have educated people who know very well that the masks don't provide any measurable protection for the wearer or anyone else when it comes to aerosol virus' (which is what SARS-COV2 is). They know it's theatre. On the other side, you have people who don't understand this and have been scared into a frenzy thinking their life is at risk, and then you have the rule followers, who simply get angry at those not following rules.

In a cramped long flight, it makes for very bad interpersonal relations. This is the fault of the medical community and their stupid policies.

[BoeingBobby]

On one side, you have educated people

obviously, you don't fall into that category!

[Evan]

On one side, you have educated people who know very well that the masks don't provide any measurable protection for the wearer or anyone else when it comes to aerosol virus' (which is what SARS-COV2 is). They know it's theatre.

What?

SARS-CoV-2 is a virus spread by airborne particles. These particles have a diameter of ≈0.1 micron. When properly worn, N94, N95, FF2 and KN-95 masks filter out at least 94-95% of particles in the 0.1 to 0.3 micron range.

I assume your education includes math. How is that not measurable protection?

[Gabriel]

the masks don't provide any measurable protection for the wearer or anyone else when it comes to aerosol virus' (which is what SARS-COV2 is).

Some masks offer minor protection to the wearer, but offer a significant protection to others from the wearer, if the wearer has the virus (and perhaps doesn't know it).
The protection doesn't come only in the form of filtration but also in the way the jet expelled from the nose and mouth is diffused when the wearer breathes, talks, coughs and sniffs.

[Gabriel]

What?

SARS-CoV-2 is a virus spread by airborne particles. These particles have a diameter of ≈0.1 micron. When properly worn, N94, N95, FF2 and KN-95 masks filter out at least 94-95% of particles in the 0.1 to 0.3 micron range.

I assume your education includes math. How is that not measurable protection?

N95 filters (and the related ones) filter about 95% of particles of the size that they filter the worse. Bigger and smaller particles are filtered with even more efficiency (bigger ones by mechanical means, smaller ones by electrostatic means). That's the nature of the HEPA filters. There are also N100 masks that filter about 99.9% of the particles of the size they filter the worse.

The problems with all these masks is fit. Do your glasses get fogged? Then the fit is not right.
And don't let me started with the idiots that use a super fancy and efficient masks N95 with exhaust valve (zero filtration from inside-out).

[Evan]

N95 filters (and the related ones) filter about 95% of particles of the size that they filter the worse. Bigger and smaller particles are filtered with even more efficiency (bigger ones by mechanical means, smaller ones by electrostatic means). That's the nature of the HEPA filters. There are also N100 masks that filter about 99.9% of the particles of the size they filter the worse.

The problems with all these masks is fit. Do your glasses get fogged? Then the fit is not right.
And don't let me started with the idiots that use a super fancy and efficient masks N95 with exhaust valve (zero filtration from inside-out).

I actually had two 3M N95's left over when the pandemic first arrived. They were pre-molded in a general face shape and came in plastic bubble packaging. Most of the N94 and FFP2 masks going around now are sold folded flat. I can't tell you how many people I see wearing these with that nose bridge still sharply creased. Unless your nose is sharply creased, you are jettisoning aerosol. I bend the nose strip around my thumb to get a rounded shape and then tie small knots in the loops to get a tighter fit. Takes half a minute. It works. They work.